After reading this post, please see “A Mountainous Journey.” It is an essay about where I currently stand on all of this!
My Whole God Story – with thoughts, current beliefs, etc – by me, David Wingerson. Sorry if some of this seems cynical or mean, but these are my honest thoughts about everything. This is going to be a long post…if you care, read it (be sure to click “read more”), if you don’t care, don’t bother.
Born
I was born into the Episcopal church – Grace Episcopal Cathedral to be exact – and baptized within my first year of life. I don’t think this mattered at all. As you will see later in my story, in no way has this influence my feelings about God and church.
All through my early years, like ages 3 to 11 I attended Sunday school each Sunday, and of course went to all the Sunday church services as well. We learned things like main bible stories, the books of the bible, and the overall God concept in a dumbed down way. Today I look back and see only a couple of things from all this schooling that has stuck with me: morals and people. From the bible stories I learned things that were right and wrong and from being in class I generally learned about humans and relationships.
I started singing in the choir at about age 7 and loved it. However, I never looked at is as singing for God or to God, even if all the text of music explicitly said “Praise His holy name” or something…I just really enjoyed singing. Singing has recently become one of my favorite things, and I think my “choir-boy” roots have really helped me.
More Recent Happenings
At around age 12 I graduated into the youth program, instead of Sunday school. This is the middle/high school class every Sunday morning that definitely encourages you to take a more individually active approach to your own beliefs and faith. Coming into this class I thought I believed in a lot of things. We would talk about all sorts of things, school-life, church commitments, movies that could relate to God, etc. I would always argue on the “God-side” and be the “Jesus-advocate” but I guess thats what everyone did in Sunday school, so I don’t think I was really making my own decisions yet. I specifically remember learning about how some people think Christians are weird, but how if you rearrange the letters in “weird” you get “wired”…as in wired for Jesus. I think this was one of the first times I felt embarrassed and thinking to myself “Does everyone else here actually feel ‘WIRED FOR JESUS?’. Does this mean I have to live for and only for some guy that lived 2000 years ago? Do I want to do that or am I selfish or something?” There began to be more of these moments in class where I would start to question things I had heard, while on the outside I was talking less and less on the Jesus-side and just listening. I’m left wondering if my youth ministers ever noticed this movement to subtlety and recognized it as insecurity and questioning…or maybe they just thought I was becoming a quiet teenager. I could tell many stories about this class…times when I have agreed or disagreed, things I began to believe or not believe, but long story short I was definitely starting to realize myself and my beliefs or rather my disbeliefs.
At about the same time I started youth group I started doing acolyte duties. Now let me tell you, acolytes at my church, Grace Cathedral, don’t consist of one or two acolytes per service just doing one or two lousy jobs. It’s more like we have 30 mostly teenage acolytes, about 10 per Sunday, with 10-20 jobs to cover per service. What really sets the acolytes apart from my other experiences at church is that my dad is the person who trains and leads the acolytes…so my dad might get a little flustered at this part of my narration. Anyway – about acolytes – I really enjoy doing acolyte stuff. I enjoy being part of a team (and more recently leading a team) and managing different jobs and taking care of things in a solemn and reverent way, even if I’m not sure about who the solemnity and reverence is being payed to. Interestingly right before each service the acolytes say a little prayer…and I found myself becoming the best person about figuring out how to NOT have to say the prayer, because I don’t really like public prayer that much (which totally goes against a very large part of religion) or even prayer itself. Currently I see acolyte duties as a Sunday morning obligation to my dad, people around me at church, and as a last connection to the possibility of church and faith.
Some time around age 13 I was convinced by a friend at school to come visit her evangelical nondenominational “super church” as I now call them. I remember going to her youth group on a Sunday night. Right before the youth service started, all the youth (like 50) got together and went into a room aside from the big worship area. The youth pastor started a prayer, and asked others to add their own prayers as he went along. Of course I just stood there quietly and bowed my head. In a short minute or two, all the sudden, the youth pastor stopped speaking English, and began speaking in tongues (more like jibberish to me). Youth all around started doing the same thing, and pretty soon the room was completely filled of jibberish mumblings and me stealing glances at my friend who was doing the same thing. You would think with all this spirit in the air, I would feel a tingle down my back or something that would be like “Hey Jesus is here”…but nope, nothing. I just stood there. Later along, at the time of Pentecost I thought back to this incident of tongue-speaking. Pentecost is the day in the church during Easter when the Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus’s disciples and allows them to speak all tongues of the Earth, so that each person in the crowd could hear in their own language. Each person in the crowd could hear in their own language. So why did I hear jibberish in that room at my friends church? I should have been hearing clear English coming from everyones lips. This realization really turned me off to the whole evangelical nondenominational “super church” thing…and was another step towards banishing my honesty in the words “I believe in God the Father.”
The Episcopal church is very community oriented. My church is in the Diocese of Kansas, which is like 50 Episcopal churches in eastern Kansas. There are diocese wide youth events that happen throughout the year. These include summer camp, Missionpalooza (a big youth mission event), Miqra (a sort of bible weekend), New Beginnings (middle school age only event), Fall Fun Fest, and Happening (about God’s love). I’ve done the majority of these events over the past 4 or 5 years, and they are some of the most fun times I’ve ever had. They’re an excellent chance to meet a lot of new friends. Sometimes these events have taught me more about God, but I’ve never felt a connection. Some of these events I’ve sat and had fun with my “fellow” Christian friends and then turned around and not believed the scripture of the day or felt any particular healing at a prayer service. Just like youth group classes, I could go into deeeeeep detail, but I will spare you the pages upon pages it would take, when I could just say: I have fun at these events, but I don’t care about any more about God in response to them.
Interestingly not long after I began writing this post this morning I got a call from a friend and aspiring youth minister, checking to see if I might want to become a peer minister. Peer ministers are youth who lead other youth to God and say lots of prayers and stuff. A peer minister is one of the last things I want to pursue considering all my thoughts against God, Jesus and the church. Anyway, I got this call from my friend – “Hey, I’m calling to see if you might want to be a youth minister” and I was kind of caught off guard. In a lame way I said something like “Ehh….uhhh…I don’t think I want to do that.” I told her she had hit my vulnerable spot. This is one thing I worry about cutting away my ties to belief. How do I tell all the friends I’ve made at youth events, “Hey I don’t believe in God anymore, but I still want to be friends”?
Personal Efforts
So far everything I’ve written about in this little history has been group and community related. You may ask if I have had any personal initiative with God…and you may or may not be surprised to hear the answer: yes. There have been brief bouts of effort over the past 3 or so years, where I have tried regular bible reading and study, prayers, etc. Every time I’ve tried these things I feel no closer connection to God. Bible reading to me is just a lot of good parables and lessons to be learned, and I don’t see it as God inspiring people to write. I’m not sure how the Bible fully came to be, I know there are a lot of uncertainties related to it. If God wants us to learn his word, why is it made so difficult through translation and language barriers?
Regular prayers for me have been a joke. Not once, in all my many tries have I felt comfort from some deity dwelling above. Never.
Another personal initiative by me was at Happening (one of those youth events). We were given a chance to talk one on one with a priest who had introduced himself and talked some earlier. He had said he grew up in church and liked it from age 0 to 25…but he never believed any of it. I said to myself “Aha, if anyone can help me figure out what I believe its this guy.” So I took the opportunity to talk to him some. I told him my situation and how similar it was to his. He basically told me “Keep looking and trying and I’m sure you’ll find something more.” I can’t comprehend how some loving understanding God would make me sit around trying for 17 years of my life, and never somehow relate “Hey David, here I am.” It’s the most discouraging feeling to think that I’ve attended 1000 church services in my life, and today don’t find God or church anymore inviting and believable than an atheist.
Conclusions
I am currently quite sure, through my own experience, that the existence of God is improbable. I’ve never once felt any hint of true indications that there is some God figure somewhere that knows and loves me. Just that idea alone I can’t stand…that there is something somewhere in this universe or maybe “outside of our discernment of existence” that knows all my thoughts and feelings. I am human, and I am me. My thoughts are mine and stay with me unless I relate them to someone else. I see NO possibility that there is somehow a way that something can penetrate and know my own electrical brain impulses. It’s absurd.
I don’t see myself withdrawing from church activities anytime soon. I really like singing in the choir and being an acolyte…though I run into a problem there. Acolytes and choir members are worship leaders. How am I supposed to stand up there and be hypocritical in my leading of worshiping something I don’t even believe in?
I enjoy the people around me at church, regardless of what they believe (I actually don’t care what anyone anywhere around believes). At church I have a few good friends and plenty of other people I wish I was better friends with. I don’t want anyone to care or be affected by my changing of blind belief to absolute disbelief. My church is a wonderful place of community and I love that. What kind of community do atheists have?
I’ve taken up the “belief in proof” stance, and I don’t see any proof. Why deal with unknowns when I can glance over and see things proven by people and science every day? I don’t know how this world came into existence, but I believe in evolution rather than creationism (since that has stemmed out of one chapter of one book that we don’t even know the origins of). I don’t know why I exist, except that I simply exist. Obviously I am here living, and have received the opportunity to be a part of the enormous spectrum of history and existence. I don’t know what will happen when I die, but I wouldn’t mind my brain impulses just stopping and everything ending…I would of had a heck of a good life on planet Earth. I don’t know or care if there is an afterlife, but I know all we can do when someone dies is remember and honor them. I’m not going to go honoring a God that doesn’t exist and thanking Him for a person’s life, when I should be spreading the good memories of that person. I don’t want to be buried in a columbarium (place for peoples ashes) at my church (even though my parents bought my brother and I our niche spots when we were very young). I want my ashes scattered in the wind on the prairies of Kansas. All I want from the end of life is a little bit of remembrance.
I think through all these words I’ve made it pretty clear that I find it damn near impossible to believe in a God. You can try to convince me with evidence…but I’ll tell you right off: I don’t believe the Bible is word from any God any where. You can try to convince me otherwise with stories of yourself being saved or whatever but that won’t work. I’ve already read plenty of stories, coming away from them feeling great about God, but soon realizing the hollow promise the stories have offered: connection, understanding, guidance, love, comfort and refuge from God…things I’ve never experienced.
Please see “A Mountainous Journey” for where I currently stand on these issues!
A dictator doesn’t love and doesn’t want a relationship with his people.
Oh my god. Do you even realize how little that statement makes sense in light of David and I’s plight? The irony…
A God that is supposed to care about love and relationships with people wouldn’t let the world continue as it is. http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm
A loving and relationship driven God wouldn’t let the world continue as it is LET ALONE LEAVE ME TO WALLOW IN MY MISERY OF MYSTERY.
Did the imaginary friend discussion die? Anyway…
You have to look at the whole story. God created people to have perfect fellowship with Him, but instead we all chose to deny God and live life by and for ourselves. We screwed that fellowship up. God wants to reconcile us all back to himself, but he has allowed us to make that choice. For that reason, if we don’t choose to go back to Him, we are going to live with the consequences.
Do you know the story of the prodigal son? It’s a good analogy. The son wanted to get away from his father and the life he had, so he demanded his dad give him his inheritance early. The son pretty much said he didn’t want or need his father anymore. His dad loved him, so he gave him the inheritance and let him go. This is like when we tell God we don’t need or want him and go do our own thing in life. The son went out and spent all his money and a famine came. He had hit rock bottom, living with pigs (who in that culture were like scum of the earth). The son realized what he was doing wasn’t working and his only choice was to go back to his father. The dad had been watching for him to come home, and when he saw him at a distance, he ran to him and hugged and kissed him. They had a party that night to celebrate the son coming home. The father was forgiving and went right on loving his son. God wants us to come back too, and he is waiting with open arms. (that parable is recorded in Luke chapter 15)
He doesn’t want you to wallow in misery of mystery. That’s why He gave us his Word. It’s okay to want evidence of the validity of the Bible. Thomas wanted proof. Give the Bible a chance- see if it stands up against the criticism. The Case for Christ shows both sides of it- the criticisms and the answers given by leading theologists of our time. If Jesus is really who He claimed to be, He can give you a better life, both now and for eternity.
For the love of Pete… The son’s father moved while the son was gone and is hiding from him. The son is looking but can’t find his father…
Well, It seems that a lot of this conversation dwells around the idea of “why does God let bad things happen to good people” arena. But, in the interest of presenting my opinion on a couple of side issues discussed:
I don’t believe that, if you are arguing the nature of God, that an imaginary friend is the best way to put it. First of all, because most adults who have imaginary friends suffer from some sort of psychological disorder, and feel that the friend is physically present. Secondly, because if you are going to argue the nature of God, I think the imaginary friend route is the wrong way to go. the relationship between an imaginary friend and a person is much different than a diety and adherent. In my opinion, I must agree with Freud (which amazes me) in that if God is any sort of imagined force, it would definitely be a grander structure of a idealistic Father relationship. Because someone can be afraid of a Father’s reaction, but still have the general understanding of unconditional love.
Something was mentioned about the dates of scriptures, along with things known as the “lost gospels” and such. I love this topic. I think the idea that these books were left out of the canon because some monolithic church didn’t agree with them is oversimplified. Realistically, there was no orthodox church at the time. These ideas (ie. Gnosticism, Marcionism, Ebionites) fell out of favor due to political and rhetorical reasons. The (later) orthodox churches, in many instances simply wrote more convincing letters and had leaders who were prolific and persuasive. But the issue here are the dates, right? Well, until we find something else, it seems the earliest fragment of any of these is in actuality the (uber-deificated) John. The thing is that many of these lost gospels were written at around 100 years after the canonical gospels, although this is still before any sort of canon developed. Dates for Matthew, Mark , Luke, And John by most scholars were written before 100 CE/AD, with Mark (the earliest) being written at 60-70. many of these lost gospels are accepted as being written in the 200’s ish, the earliest being The Gospel of Judas at somewhere in 150-180. Not only that, but the Pauline epistles (even only the seven globally accepted as the apostle’s work) posit strong orthodox (though not necessarily at the time) theological points, and were the earliest written work in the New Testament. So, while the apocryphal works of the early gnostic, et al. churches are interesting, they are by no means contemporary, nor were they particularly suppressed.
Sorry for that, that’s the nerd in me. But as for why bad things happen at all, there is an entire field of study meant for that, called theosiphy. I doubt we will add anything particularly new or exciting to the arena, but I guess my main point is how you view the world. An extreme being the Leibnizian belief that we live in the “best of all possible worlds”. Under this idea, think of happiness as a parabola facing downward. Since not everyone can be happy due to opposite aims, God has made it as such that we are at the zenith of the parabola, the most net happiness possible. This, of course, doesn’t take into account free will, which is another reason many people say there is evil in the world. Once again, you may also have to re-evaluate your definition of evil, or suffering. Because, some say (maybe tolstoi), how can you truly enjoy existance without the knowledge of death? How can one be truly happy if one is not sad at one point in time. Can courage exist in a world without conflict? And so on and so on.
As for something way far back about how people are born with certain morals, I have mixed feelings on. There are definitely thing seen in all human societies as wrong, or at least need much counter-proof to justify. Betrayal of close relationships, for example, is very rarely justified, and still is seen as wrong. Cowardice is in no society I know a championed virtue. Regardless, the reasoning behind these could be evolutionary, divine, or (dare I say) both.
Nothing to be done.
Sin doesn’t have to be an option for free will to occur. Has everyone/anyone here read God’s Debris by Scott Adams. It’s not a scientific text by any means but it poses some interesting insight into some of these deeper questions.
also, Joel, what do you know about the incidental lack of books that depict Jesus as mortal and/or the lack of Gospels such as Mary’s…
By the way, in response to a couple of things James said: The coke bottle thing you’re referencing is the 1980’s movie “The God’s Must Be Crazy”, in which a coke bottle from an airlplane lands in a tribe of Bushmen who think it is a gift from the gods. Good movie.
“Why can’t I lump those christians together and make a point. You did it with athiests that want to destroy faith.” This is just lowering yourself to someone else’s standards. Don’t let someone else dictate how you debate. Sorry to come off as harsh, but by this logic, we will all just argue stereotypical strawman views that none of us have, and we will gain no real knowledge from any of it. Discussion isn’t about winning, its about learning.
In any case, hypocracy isn’t an atheist or Christian trait. It’s human. And everyone succumbs to it eventually, that is just inevitable. But Many churches do give a lot of their money away. Its a bit stereotypical to say “all churches do this” or “all atheistic philophies do this”.
as for david, the problem with atheist community is that not all atheists believe in the same thing. It’s hard to be united by what you don’t believe. Not to say that there aren’t Voltarian or positivist or Nietzchean communities out there, but you’ll have to look harder to find a group, unfortunately.
Joel ” Discussion isn’t about winning, it’s about learning.” Very true on so many levels, however in a discussion on religion and in my experience the usual reason for many such debates is usually not to find out what the other person thinks but to persuade them to their “idea” of what is right. Just take a look at the posts on this blog entry, so many of them deal with right and wrong. Right and wrong are two very distinctive attributes about any given subject. Now, I am not saying everyone on this forum isn’t learning about other view points, because they are if they are going to read everything someone writes. It is very easy to see the posts of individuals that have a huge faith and conviction in what they believe in (that is to be commended), theres really a sense of this is what is right in some of them, as compared to the posts of people that are questioning and wanting to hear other sides of things.
Joel: As to “It’s hard to be united by what you don’t believe.” Statements like that sound great and are true, but why do you need to be united over something that big? Why not have a book club, why not be in a singing group, why not be in a political activists club, there are so many things out there to get involved in, in any community. A community by definition is:a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage. People put such a big emphisis on church as a community, when you can find a sense of “belonging” and “community” so many other places. I just find it annoying, but that is me.
Well, Cole, All these Gospels you bring up do not say that Jesus was mortal. Quite to the contrary, Gnosticism at that time believed that Jesus was fully divine and fully human still. The main theological difference at the time was whether Jesus’ death and ressurection led to salvation, or whether secret knowledge (gnosis) given by jesus could save us from our world, created by a lesser god, the Demiurge. The opinion that Jesus was a great teacher, in any form of Christianity, comes much much later. These early sects of Christianity believed variant , albeit still supernatural beliefs about his origins.
The lack of non-orthodox material in the canon is not incidental, it happened to evolve as such. Marcion was the first person to come up with a canon, which simply had fewer books than the curernt one (since he excised all the old testament and only had Luke). The first Canon as we see it today is the Muratonian canon, dated 170, and writers during the 160s such as Iraeneus speak of the four gospels we use today. In a way, what would become Orthodox had already decided what books before these lost gospels started being written, with a few exceptions.
As for the idea of proof and faith, It is impossible to know that anything really has happened the way we are told. Most biographies of ancient people were written way after they died. And we simply cannot prove (except through our resultant world) what Happened and what didnt. In this way we put faith in what is written in all ancient texts. But then again, you reach a higher existant level of whether we can prove that anything exists. It reminds me of a satirical philosophy “Last Thursday-ism” That the entire world was created last thursday in motion, with everything in motion and all our memories created at that instant. There is no way to prove or disprove this philosophy, you simply believe it or you don’t. The Nature of Existance is improvable.
That is true, but I guess the reason why Christianity focuses so much on it’s community is that it philosophically (whether this is executed or not) focuses so much on giving to others. The community itself is not divine, of course, and is founded on a mutual interest in Christianity. In my experiences, the Christian community (some of them at least) is extremely accessible, which I think is a merit.
I greatly enjoyed your last post Joel. The only comment I have for now (I’m watching Bourne Supremacy and am horrible at multitasking) is that GRANTINF “Last Thursday-ism” which is a fantastic thought in itself, I find myself looking for a higher calling that I’m lacking. I know I’m skirting all of the gospels, and what debate, but you clearly have a large knowledge of the specifics than I and I must take leave to read up more about them and the Dead Sea Scrolls and others.
Until later..
Wow – really great insights there Joel.
I want to tell everyone – church was an emotional thing this morning…even more so for my mom. Also, VERY interestestly, the sermon was all about faith, the risks vs benefits of faith, etc. I was really surprised…I thought my dad had tipped our priest off or something “hey, say something for my kid” – anyway, I’ll post a link to it tomorrow, and I hope ALL of you read it…yes James and Cole too 😉
So I don’t know where I am at right now. I can say that the past few days have been pretty depressed/depressing. Maybe that’s God – “Hey, stick with me or you’ll be really sad” or something. But who knows? I’m excited to get a lot of reading about this done…from both “sides.”
I may be a bit sad in lieu of my misery of mystery, but I’m holding just fine. It means a lot to me that you all are discussing here. You could of just skimmed my post, and moved along…but this is really nice/neat. Of course, keep it coming…I’m open/wanting to hear ANY and ALL opinions, outlooks, advice, pointers, etc, since I’m so sitting on the fence right now. 🙂
“”Maybe that’s God – “Hey, stick with me or you’ll be really sad†or something.”” That would seem kind of selfish, but then again the concept of love-me-or-goto-hell is a bit selfish…
Anyway, looking forward to your post tomorrow.
It’s not love me or go to Hell. God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell (“is not willing that any should perish”). Hell was made originally for the fallen angels because they denied God and wanted to be higher than He is. So, He let them go and hell is the place he made for them to live out the consequences of their actions. If we choose to run from God like they did, we are going to live with the same consequences. If we want nothing to do with Him in this life, why should we have anything to do with in the next? If we choose our own way here, that’s exactly what we’ll get there. Our speaker at camp this past week made a very interesting point in that Hell will have no sin, but the temptations we have here will be stronger than ever but completely unfulfillable.
I can understand how you keep coming to that conclusion Cole because I used to do the same thing. But looking at who God is in His entirety and the story of God’s relationship to mankind throughout history shows it’s completely not the case. I’ve heavily recommended The Case for Christ to David, and I recommend it to anyone who is doubting the validity of the Bible as anything more than a story book as well as the story of this guy called Jesus who changed the world 2000 years ago.
Gospel of Mary? Who is the author? I’m pretty sure women weren’t able to write during that time, were they? Joel, do you go to our school? You seem to know a lot about the canonization at the council if Nicea (sp?). My basic understanding is that they included accounts that were eye witness, or someone who spoke directly with an eye witness. All the included books were within the first 40ish years of Christ leaving if I’m not mistaken. Other gospels are left out because they didn’t meet the standard that was set for inclusion (that’s what canon means- standard).
Yep. I’m double posting. 🙂
http://www.leestrobel.com/Bible.htm
I think the one about manuscript evidence is fascinating.
Yeah. I’ll actually put my last name because I’m so daring.
Cole told me to read this cluster-f of bickering, so I did.
I haven’t gotten anything out of the comments; just the same old Cole/James/Atheists vs Heather/Joel?/Maggie/Religious Peoples arguments [Maybe that was all a waste of my time].
BUT I did find your monologue, David, quite interesting [for lack of a better word.. or thesaurus]. Faith is all about questions and even if those questions don’t lead you somewhere now or even soon, they will someday. And even if that path that you are lead on doesn’t take you to Christianity or a belief in God as a whole, at least you’ll know that you have tried and haven’t failed yourself.
What is needed isn’t a rope tied around your neck trying to bring you back to religion or even one that is pulling you towards atheism. I believe that the best thing to do is figure this all out for yourself because all that you will ever receive from these people is the rope and the bias that you’ve received since you were young.
I did the same a year or so ago and I arrived at Christianity, but then again, you’re way different than me. I’m sure that your brain is killing itself thinking about all of this, so just take some time to relax and then tackle those pressing questions.
But hey, I may be completely wrong! Woo hoo!
Just don’t beat yourself up too much about it.
//jnelson
P.S. – Denominations and religion are the root of all problems in this world.
Hmm… That was really a huge stream of my thoughts jumbled together onto a comment box.
I’m not going to go back and fix anything, but some of it may be irrational. Just to forewarn. Er.. I guess post-warn?
Yeah anyway.
I’m going to go back to making eyeglasses.
//jnelson
You have a PC at work Johnny? Please tell me you don’t actually take your laptop to work…
I take my laptop to work on Saturday’s when I work for the music.
But back here in the lab we have a iMac and a Dell PC. I’m on the Dell PC because the iMac is a G4 iMac and the network card is fried on it.
Yep yep.
//jnelson
I have a spare network card… oh wait, I forgot you can’t upgrade/replace components in Mac hardware… (sorry for hte off topic ness) Where’s the new post David?
The Gospel of Mary, is a text written in the second century (it’s interesting that Cole brought that one up, because usually the lost gospel brought up Is the Gospel of Thomas). In any case, the author is unknown, but it basically consists of some Gnostic Theology, and an interesting idea of Mary Magdalene (the mary most people think the text refers to) being more loved than the disciples. In any point, it holds a sort of feminist aspect of some early churches.
I don’t go to your school, I know David through the same sort of things as Maggie and Katie. Sorry to be a bit unclear. I love the early history of the Church, and have read a couple of things about it. Well, the council (and people before them) used the criteria of Divinely-inspired and A first or secondhand account. Thats why things like the Shepperd of Hermas or the letters of Clement aren’t included. The dates depend on the person you talk to, but basically up to 60- 100 are the range of dates for all the canonical gospels. But, then again, there were different canons by different sects. Some books were excluded because they were ideas not held by a majority of Christians, some because they were written mainly as entertainment (the infancy gospels, for example).
I might be differently accustomed to this type of discussion than other people, because I do this all the time with my friends (I learned how not to ever be offended, ever, that way), but I don’t see this as bickering, per se. Anyhow, I disagree with your assessment of religion and denomination as the source of conflict . In my opinion, people will always have different ideas. This is what’s great about the world, because if everyone believed the exact same thing then it would be a conformity based Hell. Sources of conflict include: extreme economic disparities (how Marxist of me), and coercive use of power. We can disagree, but no one should try to stifle someone else’s ideas.
David,
The words are just turning and turning in my head. I cannot even really express them here I don’t think.
I wish I could be telling you this in person so you could see the truth in my eyes…I do not have any of it figured out either. I am just as confused as you are. It is the most heart-wrenching thing this God stuff because I am not sure what to believe myself. The only thing I know is that I came to this program for a reason. I don’t know if it was God or fate or it just happened but entering the world of this youth program has changed my life.
I would never tell you what to believe or how to act and I am sorry for the peer ministry thing. I will only tell you this….you have nothing to hide, especially not from me. You are one of the most inspiring kids I have ever met and knowing you has been what I believe is a blessing. I wish I could express to you how amazing you are. I look at you and see a person who is talented, determined, caring, and full of passion for life. I see you, David and it has nothing to do with me thinking you are this spiritual kid who has it all figured out.
David, please know that no matter what I am proud of you. I know that you are who you are and that you are not afraid of it. To me, you have nothing to be ashamed of or feel like you can’t share. Just because you are questioning these things does not mean you are a bad person by any means. People are meant to question things in their lives…if they don’t they will never learn anything new. Please know that you can talk to me about this and I will listen with an open heart. Like I said I would never claim to offer you answers because I admit I do not have any. Just because I am an “adult” and am thinking about youth ministry, doesn’t mean I have anything figured out. As a matter of fact, knowing God is my greatest struggle.
I am here, David and will continue to be. I love you and hope we can talk about all of this soon.
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Man I haven’t been on in way too long. Well I got XBox Live and have been playing it way too long and haven’t even cared about gettin gon the computer.
Cole, about evolution. The only thing you’ve heard so far is that evolution is the feces of livestock. Well sure I was just throwing out there what I thought about it. No Cole I have not taken a Biology class I am going to be a sophomore in highschool and I’m not good at math. Think what you want of the classes I’ve taken but I’ve been influenced by the creationist movement. I was first influenced by creation in seventh grade youth group. Before that I really care about evolution and I didn’t even think about it. But after I saw the video in youth group of Kent Hovind. He’s a great guy. I could easily send you a bad quality video of him on youtube. So ever since then I’ve been really interested in the subject.
Well Cole I had learned from the video that evolution supposedly has no evidence and has not been observed. And I believe that. So I tell evolutionists this everywhere and I ask for observable evidence. Well everytime I do this they speak of microevolution. The talk about bacterial mutations or the evolution of viruses. They always try and explain this to me as evidence for macroevolution; by the way that’s what I’m speaking of, among other things. They try and apply microevolution to a broader scale. Of course that doesn’t prove that humanity is the result of an ameba; or as I’ve heard it before, a rock. But that all depends on your theory of evolution. Then some try to explain the theory to me. Simply explaining how it works. Yet this is just speaking of what you believe it shows no evidence. All while calling me an idiot, stupid, you know retarded; ignorant. Funny it seems to me that they are the ignorant ones. They also feel the whole time that they and their theory are intellectually superior to me and mine. They feel that their atheistic view on evolutin is logical. I think it’s far from logical and it gets pretty stupid hearing the same thing out of their mouths. You are one that doesn’t start spouting this crap right off the bat. So basically I’ve said the same thing. I don’t believe evolution is observable or proven yet evolutionists think so for some reason. This is the stuff I always get from them.
About love, Cole dogs may have a certain degree of love. But it’s not human love. True human love, guilt, mercy. No Cole there is a fine line between the two. Humanity, the emotions and feelings of it seperated from the animals signifies a God to me. There is more to it than evolution.
No Cole evolution is not eugenics, and I’m not saying that evolutin is. I was using an example of how the theory of evolution may have sparked Hitler’s murderous ways as you cited religion causing world problems. I’m not saying evolution is eugenics. That was one time in history.
No James, I was not trying to lump all atheists together as horrible people. I was speaking of select ones. Ones that jump on world tragedies to discredit God. And I think there is a big difference between attempting to destroy faith and attempting to spread it. Christians would like to share the love they feel. I simply don’t know why atheists would like to spread the love they don’t feel??????
David you can cite world tragedy and illness all day long and try and discredit God. But it all comes down to what you believe. I get the point, bad stuff happens in the world; really bad stuff. And I myself don’t understand why God doesn’t help with much of it. But because God will not grant an amputee a leg, does not mean he does not exist. That shows nothing more than what your opinion on God. It does not discredit him.
I’m really tired of people saying that I believe in God simply for comfort to help me throught life’s struggles. You can say whatever you want. But I don’t praise God because I feel insecure and uncomfortable in my life. And yes God has helped me through tough times ok. You can say that that’s just me trying to comfort myself but no. I know he is there. And about imaginary friends Heather puts it perfectly.
David I feel better that you’re still open minded to the possibility of God. I do believe God is pulling at your heart right now. You’ve really got to think about life David. I mean, did we really come from nothing? I’m not a minister. I hope you will go in the right direction David.
“”No Cole I have not taken a Biology class I am going to be a sophomore in highschool and I’m not good at math. Think what you want of the classes I’ve taken but I’ve been influenced by the creationist movement.””
There’s nothing wrong with that, but how can you possibly say that evolution has to have proof when religion has none. At least there are fossils, and MICROEVOLUTION, sure its a leap of faith to apply it to macroevolution, but no greater a leap than with religion. I’m not saying you haven’t taken good classes, but I am saying that you are unqualified to say that evolution has no evidence. Unless you can argue specifics on gradualism or others, there is just too much out there that you have not been exposed to…
“”About love, Cole dogs may have a certain degree of love. But it’s not human love. True human love, guilt, mercy.””
I could not disagree more. My dogs are more in-tune with how I feel than my parents some times. Sadie picks on Rosie but knows to go easy on her some times, she feels bad when she shreads the Time Magazine article and she loves me and the rest of my family. What have humans ever done that is so uniquely loving? Hell, dogs don’t fight wars over oil…
“”Christians would like to share the love they feel. I simply don’t know why atheists would like to spread the love they don’t feel?””
Interesting thought, this one through me for a loop. I suppose I would interject that most atheists don’t try to spread their doctrine as much as rebuke that which they encounter that they disagree with… which is only fair.
By the way, I’ve seen and read about Kent Hovind – needless to say, I simply can not take anything you say with a grain of salt when you haven’t had a proper exposure to biology and the only thing you know is the crap, er, I should say “stuff” that he teaches…
Here’s some background on Mr. Hovind, samelessly copied from wikipedia: “Kent Hovind had been charged with assault and battery, falsely declaring bankruptcy, making threats against federal officials, filing false complaints, failing to get necessary building permits, and various tax-related charges. He was convicted of federal tax and related charges, for which he is currently serving a 10-year sentence.”
As for your argument for there not being evidence of macroevolution – consider this – those “funny pictures” depicting an ape walking inthrough metamorphasis into a human being, those are fancy animations, those are recreated based on ACTUAL skeletons that scientists have found. Or did God just have a sense of humor in making those parallel, aligning, coincidental structures…
Yeah, he really screwed up pretty badly. Even Jesus said render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s.
How many skeletons? How many whole skeletons? Where was it found? How many scientists actually agree? Aside from what others say, is it really concrete, conclusive evidence for macroevolution?
I’m not going to try to convince anyone of anything anymore, but I hope everyone keeps a critical mind and doesn’t just accept what evolutionist scientists, or creationists, say is right.
Cole you need to understand that I have taken the position that my religion has no more proof than yours, and you are using just as much faith as I am. That’s all I care for you to realize. I’m not saying that evolution has to have proof, just that it has to have it if an evolutionist is going to call it more logical than mine. It also has to have proof if you are going to teach it as fact in science classrooms; biology maybe. So what I am saying is that the two are equals and that I’m tired of the evolution theory being put above the creation one in logical reasoning and scientific observation. It has none of those yet neither does mine. I have seen no evidence for evolution. That’s what I have seen.
Cole you have just told me that your dogs have the same loving emotions as us humans. I’m sorry Cole, I think I may be sick. Just kidding but seriously. You have just put your daily thoughts and emotions on the level of an animal. Sure a dog will lick you when you come to the door or cower when it knows it has done something bad. But Cole this is not human emotion. Your dog loves you because you feed it and you have raised it. Dogs have been domesticated for this. Your dog appears to feel bad after ripping up a magazine because it realizes a punishment may be on the way. These are not human emotions. A human will think twice before attacking and almost killing another over another piece of land. A human will not kill a child out of a sudden animalistic attack of rage. A human, Cole, will think twice before killing another of any sort. Don’t even tell me that my emotions compare evenly to my dog. Someone asked earlier why evolution is not beautiful. This is a reason I see. Evolution puts us at the mentality that we are nothing more than animals. We evolved from them therefore we are at the same level as them emotionally. There is a big difference between human and animal emotions Cole. I can’t believe you don’t see that.
Ok would you like a video of him Cole? I’m sure you would be surprised that the guy absolutely has something to say. You can say it’s crap until you see it and respond to it. Yes Hovind is an idiot; in legal terms. I simply do not understand what the heck he was thinking. I knew about the tax fraud but those other things like assault and battery. I’d like to here more about those. The guy has made some serious retard mistakes and I don’t understand it. But that doesn’t ruin his credibility and material as a creationist.
The monkey thing. There’s a whole other discussion to this. The way evolutionists find and interpret bones is far from the way creationists do. Yes all the skeletons had actually been found. It’s what the evolutionists classify them as that comes up opposite of the creationist take. This is also on Hovind’s videos.
A lot of his stuff is on youtube. I have a copy of his ten (or however many) disc set. Hurray for no copyright!
Also, I’ll point out there’s a lot of controversy as to his academic credibility (a lot of poeple don’t think he should be called “Dr. Hovind”). But regardless, you can still look to the logic of what he has to say (and the facts he uses to back it up).
With that, I’m going to excuse myself from the evolution discussion unless something really tips me over the edge. 🙂
Like I said, I’ve seen his stuff, I’m not impressed, he hasn’t had regular Biology either… cough.
As for “That’s all I care for you to realize.”… I’ve realized that each need faith, I’ve said that from the beginning, but there is no way that it requires more. One has something that at least TRIES to be evidence, fossils are SOMETHING at the very least, even religion doesn’t have that, which isn’t necessarily a flaw, but it definetely isn’t a compelling point for me…
If you’ve really seen ALL his stuff (The man has a series of about ten videos/DVDs that are about four hours each), you’d realize he gives a plethora of evidence.
Did Darwin take biology? (honest question!)
PS- cough, Lee Strobel, a former hard core atheist, found enough evidence (and came to Christ by reason, not emotion: whoa), and he wants to share it with you so you should read The Case for Christ and just see what it has to say, cough. 🙂
Ok people have attacked Hovind’s academic credibility before but this is a desperate attack that does not benefit the debate at all. It doesn’t matter what degree he has it matters the material that comes out of his mouth and in his videos.
No Cole I don’t think you’ve seen his stuff. FIY everyone I own the seven part video series he has on DVD. Heather is absolutely right, he does give a plethora of evidence Cole. Shoot you may feel embarassed by some of the evidence he uses to discredit your theory. And yes, the FOSSIL evidence Cole. Stop with this fossil crap. If you’re trying to tell me that fossils prove evolution and that fossils are on its side than you are absolutely wrong. If anything it’s the other way around. Fossils aren’t a compelling point for me to buy into evolution because they don’t prove evolution.
Kent Hovind’s videos are great. I may just have to send you a link. They’re all bad quality unless you’ve seen different Heather. I saw a couple of debates online. I watched one. The evolutionist simply sat there and explained his theory. He just explained it. He gave no evidence and when he did try and give evidence Hovind refuted it. There’s a whole other side out there Cole with evidence. Fossil evidence. Fossils do not prove evolution. Like you seem to continue to state.
And plenty of other atheists, actually evolution educated atheists out there have turned to Christ and creationism. Simply by studying the complexity of life around them. I was at church one day and the Pastor spoke of one atheist which I forget his name, that turned away from atheism by looking at DNA. He felt that there’s simply no way that that DNA could have come together by chance. There is another story out there. Your’s is not the truth and your’s is not the best. Not saying that you said that but just throwing it out there.
Why are there 40+ comments debating eveolution vs creationism? I think its the most time wasting debate one can have. no one will ever convince the other. Plus, what the hell does it matter where we came from? All that matters is where we are, and where we are going. Why do you all insist on putting your heads down and wondering where we came from? There is so much more to worry about…and yeah, I know your lives are revolving around this issue. BUT did you forget about what this post was originally about?
Actually, the entire concept of having a relationship with God through Christ (God reconciling His people to Himself) spins off of creation and the subsequent fall of man… you know, when mankind screwed up the perfect relationship we already had with Him? Sigh.
I haven’t forgotten what the post was about, and that’s why I’m trying to hold back on this debate… am I failing miserably?
To Kodi: My aunt sent us a copy of the series on DVD and my youthpastor has a set. It’s not copyrighted, so everyone can copy and distribute freely. The vids on youtube aren’t that great though, honestly.
I have seen a couple (only a couple) of his bits of evidence have a little doubt cast on them, but hardly significant enough the amount of doubt, or the amount of evidence it shadows upon to convince me otherwise.
I’ve said it before Kodi, I’m not having this discussion with you. You do not know what you are talking about and I’m simply not going to have this pointless discussion with you. If you think it’s a complete coincidence that fossils that could support the theory of evolution happen to exist in the fossil record in a manner that supports the theory of evolution and is likewise correlated to the physical divergence and emergence of species, then fine, enjoy your own delusional world.
Jeez, I’m getting pissed off again. I swear. People can convince themselves of the stupidest stuff. Evolution does not have to be incompatible with the Bible, why do people not get that.
Seriously Kodi, do you believe people rode Dinosaurs? Tell me. Please.
You just don’t get it Kodi. I have something. It may be wrong, even though it isn’t, it may be some thing that some pompous ass can proclaim to disprove, but I can go out there, and I can dig real fossils of species that don’t exist anymore, yet I can spend hours looking for any kind of divine guidance in my life to help me with the bullshit I have to deal with… and yet you have the nerve to tell me that “mine is not the truth and is not the best”.
Kodi, I would love to believe that. You have this awful imagine of atheists wanting to burn down churches. I used to go to one, imagine that, and you know what, it didn’t fit, so I learned about evolution and it fit. I’m still waiting for my divine intervention and it still hasn’t happened.
http://drdino.com/articles.php?spec=59
Okay, I’ll shut up now!
Sorry David!
Well said Cole.
Well David the post was originally centered around your belief in God. So debating atheism and evolution and the likes wouldn’t be too far off subject. And David it’s a basic human need to understand where we have come from. There’s no way you don’t care. We should be talking about where we have come from. I believe it does matter.
Aww Cole you’re so mad. Well you see this is what every atheist ends up saying. You say I don’t know what I’m talking about right off the bat. Cole would you like me to send you a couple of videos letting you know that I know what I’m talking about? No Cole your fossils do not infallibly support the evolution theory. That is crap. Please give me your examples. I believe God created Dinosaurs and all life in the same week period. There you go. Call me crazy. Yet there is much more to be explained.
Cole we both have something that may be wrong. That is the truth. When I said that your’s is not the truth and your’s is not the best I didn’t mean to ignorantly state that mine was. I meant that your’s is not the only infallible way to expain things out there. Look, here’s the smart way to look at it. We both believe that our way of looking at life is the truth, but we would be ignorant to blindly state that. I can’t prove there is a God and you can’t prove there isn’t. I have enough faith that there is a God that I know he is there and am sure of his existence; nothing would take me away from that. But that doesn’t mean that mine is the truth by intellectual standards. That is the way we should look at it.
Cole in some of your previous articles you have come off as plenty of a pompous ass. Not to be rude. I mean saying creationists are a joke and all. And I’ve spoken plenty of the fossils; they don’t prove evolution. No I don’t have an image of atheists burning down churches and I don’t know why you think that. I spoke of evolution being a possible cause in Hitler’s genocide, I complained about some, some atheists trying to destroy faith. And now I am trying to expose the fallacy that I believe is the evolution theory. That has nothing to do with atheists burning down churches. Don’t get so mad Cole, I’m trying to tell you that evolution is not supported by fossils yet all you say is I don’t know what I’m talking about.
And thank you Heather. I hope you find something in that article Cole. I know that website very well! I don’t know, instead of just not talking to me, why don’t you just make me look bad with your fossil evidence? Or do you have any? Let’s go Cole.
Kodi: I find it very sad that you post such comments on a friends website. All I see there is a lack of respect for not only David but also for everyone else here. As for the debate on evloution; David said himself that you were straying away from the orginal topic of this discussion. Did that stop you from posting about it again? No! David allows us to post anything we want on here, he does not monitor, or subject our post to any kind of screening process. Don’t you think that is nice? I do.
To quote Joel: “Discussion isn’t about winning, it’s about learning”
To me it seems there isn’t much learning going on, but a battle for who is right and who ultmitly wins. I find it sad. I’m not saying that in many of my posts I didn’t try to be “right.” I’m not without faults. I just find it a little sad to see this discussion deteriate this far.
Kodi: In your last post here you openly condescend and blatently bait Cole for a battle. I’m embarrassed for you. I wish that you would have shared your opinions with the rest of us in a manner of open discussion and not one of hostility.
Cole it is very commendable that you do not take the bait that Kodi is trying to snare you with.
Kodi: I hope that you reavaluate your methods of expressing your opinions in a discussion.
In my whole post I did not subcomb to name calling. It is very rude to call someone one a pompus ass, whether or not they were. By the way cole is not discussing these things with you because of how you want to discuss it. I’m sure he has recognized all of which has happened, and all of which I’m trying to tell you.
“And I’ve spoken plenty of the fossils; they don’t prove evolution.”
No. You haven’t. that is the ONLY thing you have said, which doesn’t mean a damn thing! It contains no redirect, and I have yet to see a reason that carbon dating and the stratosphere’s don’t help the theory of evolution. You keep saying it doesn’t, but you haven’t made one single god forsaken argument. You just keep saying “No it doesn’t”. Which is why this debate is ending for me.
I just don’t get it. You commend me for admitting that one is taken with faith, yet you sit there and say the exact same thing over and over “fossils don’t _prove_ evolution”. Yes, your twisted psuedo-science videos don’t show any good arguments for fossils+evolution, but at least it’s something. Religion can’t even provide one thing that can be used as a supportative argument like that. Let me guess, your response here will be “but fossils don’t prove it!!!!!”, yeah, we know….
Lets just say that if this was a debate, I have 10 arguments on the flow, you have grouped them, and have offered one response with NO evidence to back it up, thus…
Kodi, David’s point is the same as mine, both require faith and a pointless discussion about evidence for God isn’t going to go anywhere. Luckily the evolution debate is not even close to being the same as the debate about the existence of god. There are THREE debates here. The first: whether or not God exists (a pointless debate that will never be answered), whether evolution is real (a discussion that can take place is debating the quality of supporting evidence for both sides, yet proving here to be equally pointless) and finally, whether the idea of God is a good one and the morals of God (aka why would a loving God let people die, why is there a hell, etc).
Until those three are distinctly argued in a constructive manner this discussion is going to continue in a ridiculous loop. Someone really needs to make like an online debate software or something that keeps tract of arguments and flows and cross applys, etc… hmmm to google.
Wow James! I’ve reread my comments and find nothing over hostile or rude! I’d like to start off saying that I hope I haven’t offended anyone with my comments! Which I find no problem with. A lack of respect for David! David said that we may be straying a little away from the conversation but he never said to end the conversation all together! And I don’t think he would encourage that. David, if you would like me or others to stop just tell me. I hope I’m not pissing you off. When I posted last I challenged Cole to give me his fossil evidence. Yes I was challenging him to continue discussing. Whatever you want to call it a battle or anything. But I didn’t mean it in bad taste. I questioned if he had any to challenge him to debate further which you must call condescending, and then I said “let’s go Cole”. Meaning let’s have a debate Cole. Nothing over-confrontational! Dang!
And excuse me James, but I’m not sure what Cole meant by this statement:
“It may be wrong, even though it isn’t, it may be some thing that some pompous ass can proclaim to disprove,”
That is why I claimed that he may have “come off as a pompous ass”. Which by the way I wasn’t calling him directly thank you very much. Sheesh. Now that I think of it he was probably referring to other creationists out there but even if he was, I wanted to show that he may have acted like one before. Cole? Oh and even if I did call him it directly which I didn’t, that’s a real easy name to call someone. I mean dang, it’s not like a called him an idiot or something like that. Ease down please! I didn’t think I was being that crazy!
Sorry Cole by that I didn’t mean I’ve spoken plenty of fossil evidence. I meant I’ve already told you what I think of you using fossils to justify evolution. Like saying at least evolution has fossils. I did not mean that I’ve gone deep into it. When I continue to say that fossils don’t prove evolution. I’m trying to get you to give me some examples to the contrary. Yet that’s failed so far. But wait….
Ah carbon dating. Thank you Cole you’ll here it from this one. By the way did you check out the “Ficticious Ape Men” article. What did you think of it? I would post by myself to show that I do have knowledge on this subject but I’ll give you a couple links relating to it. The links will probably put it better than I can. Please read and let me know what you think. Let me know if the evidence of carbon dating in your mind is destroyed forever.
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=79
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=73
I’m really computer illiterate so I don’t know if those will link. If they don’t or the links don’t work, just paste it into google and it will link you directly there. I hope that is some constructive evidence for you.
Oh and sorry for double posting I guess that’s a bad thing? It would be better if we could delete our posts. Well I’m going to percussion camp with David and I’ll be gone until Thursday night. Sorry if I came off in really bad taste or really pissed anyone off. Maybe I’ll have something to say when I get back.
Thanks for the link Kodi, I skimmed past it last night, but I thought there wasn’t a link before otherwise I would have read it… either way…
Just so you know, I wasn’t referring to you when I made the snide comment earlier, I was referring to the people that make those movies, that in my opinion are biased. I will take a look at that article, but I’ve read it before as I’ve had this discussion with another person based on this same argument.
I’ll try to issue a proper response but I’m really busy, leaving soon and all. And by the way, I was being personally offended and I hope you were either so all’s good.
As for the article, the arguments are all blown out of proportion. For example, he/she says that the magnetic field is deteriorating, but does he say how much? He implies a rate that would affect carbon dating, but if it was that much, even 6000 years ago to today, the world would NOT EXIST. The magnetic field is essential to our ozone, to our communication, navigation, flight migration patterns, etc, etc. Sure it’s deteriorating, the Earth’s core is slowing, the Earth is spinning slower, but it soooo small that we only know it’s decreasing because of the theoretics… Let’s just say that if it was declining as much as he would like you to think, Earth would have stopped being inhabitable years ago, or if it’s a recent change, it will cease in a few hundred years… which of course is not the case.q
On the Evolution platform, I think that it is a silly argument. I understand that it is natural to want to know where people come from, but both sides are guilty of using arguments mainly based on pathos, and almost always claiming that the other side is demeaning something they believe sacrosanct (God or Science). Both sides have their charlatans. It shouldn’t be such a divisive issue, in my opinion.
Joel, I could be off the mark, but you can say that because of the fact that in your mind, you can reconcile both. There are those people though, that feel they must take their religion to the extent that they must believe the earth is 6000 years old and humans rode dinosaurs to work. There is a direct contrast there and there is no way around it.
Besides, I’m not really sure what you were referring to abou the “silly argument” bit unless you were referring to the whole thing. But I agree with you, which is why I think it’s unfair to watch those “documentaries” *cough* without having a proper evolution education…. grrrr… why does it have to be one or the other!!
What I kind of mean is that, while I understand why there is debate, I agree with David that it is an over-inflated issue. Think of all the time and money has gone into the lawsuits and such (on both sides) that could have been used to help people. Let’s at least make sure that people aren’t dying for no reason (war, famine, thirst, poverty) before we start putting our attention on things like evolution or creationism. For Creationists our there: which do you think is mentioned more often by Jesus, the inerrancy of the Law (seeing as he changed its overall purpose), or helping other people? For Evolutionists: If we aren’t helping the people we have our science and history for, then why have the sciences at all?
That is quite a refreshing view Joel… I wish more were like you… but for the sake of it, it’s still fun to debate.