After reading this post, please see “A Mountainous Journey.” It is an essay about where I currently stand on all of this!
My Whole God Story – with thoughts, current beliefs, etc – by me, David Wingerson. Sorry if some of this seems cynical or mean, but these are my honest thoughts about everything. This is going to be a long post…if you care, read it (be sure to click “read more”), if you don’t care, don’t bother.
Born
I was born into the Episcopal church – Grace Episcopal Cathedral to be exact – and baptized within my first year of life. I don’t think this mattered at all. As you will see later in my story, in no way has this influence my feelings about God and church.
All through my early years, like ages 3 to 11 I attended Sunday school each Sunday, and of course went to all the Sunday church services as well. We learned things like main bible stories, the books of the bible, and the overall God concept in a dumbed down way. Today I look back and see only a couple of things from all this schooling that has stuck with me: morals and people. From the bible stories I learned things that were right and wrong and from being in class I generally learned about humans and relationships.
I started singing in the choir at about age 7 and loved it. However, I never looked at is as singing for God or to God, even if all the text of music explicitly said “Praise His holy name” or something…I just really enjoyed singing. Singing has recently become one of my favorite things, and I think my “choir-boy” roots have really helped me.
More Recent Happenings
At around age 12 I graduated into the youth program, instead of Sunday school. This is the middle/high school class every Sunday morning that definitely encourages you to take a more individually active approach to your own beliefs and faith. Coming into this class I thought I believed in a lot of things. We would talk about all sorts of things, school-life, church commitments, movies that could relate to God, etc. I would always argue on the “God-side” and be the “Jesus-advocate” but I guess thats what everyone did in Sunday school, so I don’t think I was really making my own decisions yet. I specifically remember learning about how some people think Christians are weird, but how if you rearrange the letters in “weird” you get “wired”…as in wired for Jesus. I think this was one of the first times I felt embarrassed and thinking to myself “Does everyone else here actually feel ‘WIRED FOR JESUS?’. Does this mean I have to live for and only for some guy that lived 2000 years ago? Do I want to do that or am I selfish or something?” There began to be more of these moments in class where I would start to question things I had heard, while on the outside I was talking less and less on the Jesus-side and just listening. I’m left wondering if my youth ministers ever noticed this movement to subtlety and recognized it as insecurity and questioning…or maybe they just thought I was becoming a quiet teenager. I could tell many stories about this class…times when I have agreed or disagreed, things I began to believe or not believe, but long story short I was definitely starting to realize myself and my beliefs or rather my disbeliefs.
At about the same time I started youth group I started doing acolyte duties. Now let me tell you, acolytes at my church, Grace Cathedral, don’t consist of one or two acolytes per service just doing one or two lousy jobs. It’s more like we have 30 mostly teenage acolytes, about 10 per Sunday, with 10-20 jobs to cover per service. What really sets the acolytes apart from my other experiences at church is that my dad is the person who trains and leads the acolytes…so my dad might get a little flustered at this part of my narration. Anyway – about acolytes – I really enjoy doing acolyte stuff. I enjoy being part of a team (and more recently leading a team) and managing different jobs and taking care of things in a solemn and reverent way, even if I’m not sure about who the solemnity and reverence is being payed to. Interestingly right before each service the acolytes say a little prayer…and I found myself becoming the best person about figuring out how to NOT have to say the prayer, because I don’t really like public prayer that much (which totally goes against a very large part of religion) or even prayer itself. Currently I see acolyte duties as a Sunday morning obligation to my dad, people around me at church, and as a last connection to the possibility of church and faith.
Some time around age 13 I was convinced by a friend at school to come visit her evangelical nondenominational “super church” as I now call them. I remember going to her youth group on a Sunday night. Right before the youth service started, all the youth (like 50) got together and went into a room aside from the big worship area. The youth pastor started a prayer, and asked others to add their own prayers as he went along. Of course I just stood there quietly and bowed my head. In a short minute or two, all the sudden, the youth pastor stopped speaking English, and began speaking in tongues (more like jibberish to me). Youth all around started doing the same thing, and pretty soon the room was completely filled of jibberish mumblings and me stealing glances at my friend who was doing the same thing. You would think with all this spirit in the air, I would feel a tingle down my back or something that would be like “Hey Jesus is here”…but nope, nothing. I just stood there. Later along, at the time of Pentecost I thought back to this incident of tongue-speaking. Pentecost is the day in the church during Easter when the Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus’s disciples and allows them to speak all tongues of the Earth, so that each person in the crowd could hear in their own language. Each person in the crowd could hear in their own language. So why did I hear jibberish in that room at my friends church? I should have been hearing clear English coming from everyones lips. This realization really turned me off to the whole evangelical nondenominational “super church” thing…and was another step towards banishing my honesty in the words “I believe in God the Father.”
The Episcopal church is very community oriented. My church is in the Diocese of Kansas, which is like 50 Episcopal churches in eastern Kansas. There are diocese wide youth events that happen throughout the year. These include summer camp, Missionpalooza (a big youth mission event), Miqra (a sort of bible weekend), New Beginnings (middle school age only event), Fall Fun Fest, and Happening (about God’s love). I’ve done the majority of these events over the past 4 or 5 years, and they are some of the most fun times I’ve ever had. They’re an excellent chance to meet a lot of new friends. Sometimes these events have taught me more about God, but I’ve never felt a connection. Some of these events I’ve sat and had fun with my “fellow” Christian friends and then turned around and not believed the scripture of the day or felt any particular healing at a prayer service. Just like youth group classes, I could go into deeeeeep detail, but I will spare you the pages upon pages it would take, when I could just say: I have fun at these events, but I don’t care about any more about God in response to them.
Interestingly not long after I began writing this post this morning I got a call from a friend and aspiring youth minister, checking to see if I might want to become a peer minister. Peer ministers are youth who lead other youth to God and say lots of prayers and stuff. A peer minister is one of the last things I want to pursue considering all my thoughts against God, Jesus and the church. Anyway, I got this call from my friend – “Hey, I’m calling to see if you might want to be a youth minister” and I was kind of caught off guard. In a lame way I said something like “Ehh….uhhh…I don’t think I want to do that.” I told her she had hit my vulnerable spot. This is one thing I worry about cutting away my ties to belief. How do I tell all the friends I’ve made at youth events, “Hey I don’t believe in God anymore, but I still want to be friends”?
Personal Efforts
So far everything I’ve written about in this little history has been group and community related. You may ask if I have had any personal initiative with God…and you may or may not be surprised to hear the answer: yes. There have been brief bouts of effort over the past 3 or so years, where I have tried regular bible reading and study, prayers, etc. Every time I’ve tried these things I feel no closer connection to God. Bible reading to me is just a lot of good parables and lessons to be learned, and I don’t see it as God inspiring people to write. I’m not sure how the Bible fully came to be, I know there are a lot of uncertainties related to it. If God wants us to learn his word, why is it made so difficult through translation and language barriers?
Regular prayers for me have been a joke. Not once, in all my many tries have I felt comfort from some deity dwelling above. Never.
Another personal initiative by me was at Happening (one of those youth events). We were given a chance to talk one on one with a priest who had introduced himself and talked some earlier. He had said he grew up in church and liked it from age 0 to 25…but he never believed any of it. I said to myself “Aha, if anyone can help me figure out what I believe its this guy.” So I took the opportunity to talk to him some. I told him my situation and how similar it was to his. He basically told me “Keep looking and trying and I’m sure you’ll find something more.” I can’t comprehend how some loving understanding God would make me sit around trying for 17 years of my life, and never somehow relate “Hey David, here I am.” It’s the most discouraging feeling to think that I’ve attended 1000 church services in my life, and today don’t find God or church anymore inviting and believable than an atheist.
Conclusions
I am currently quite sure, through my own experience, that the existence of God is improbable. I’ve never once felt any hint of true indications that there is some God figure somewhere that knows and loves me. Just that idea alone I can’t stand…that there is something somewhere in this universe or maybe “outside of our discernment of existence” that knows all my thoughts and feelings. I am human, and I am me. My thoughts are mine and stay with me unless I relate them to someone else. I see NO possibility that there is somehow a way that something can penetrate and know my own electrical brain impulses. It’s absurd.
I don’t see myself withdrawing from church activities anytime soon. I really like singing in the choir and being an acolyte…though I run into a problem there. Acolytes and choir members are worship leaders. How am I supposed to stand up there and be hypocritical in my leading of worshiping something I don’t even believe in?
I enjoy the people around me at church, regardless of what they believe (I actually don’t care what anyone anywhere around believes). At church I have a few good friends and plenty of other people I wish I was better friends with. I don’t want anyone to care or be affected by my changing of blind belief to absolute disbelief. My church is a wonderful place of community and I love that. What kind of community do atheists have?
I’ve taken up the “belief in proof” stance, and I don’t see any proof. Why deal with unknowns when I can glance over and see things proven by people and science every day? I don’t know how this world came into existence, but I believe in evolution rather than creationism (since that has stemmed out of one chapter of one book that we don’t even know the origins of). I don’t know why I exist, except that I simply exist. Obviously I am here living, and have received the opportunity to be a part of the enormous spectrum of history and existence. I don’t know what will happen when I die, but I wouldn’t mind my brain impulses just stopping and everything ending…I would of had a heck of a good life on planet Earth. I don’t know or care if there is an afterlife, but I know all we can do when someone dies is remember and honor them. I’m not going to go honoring a God that doesn’t exist and thanking Him for a person’s life, when I should be spreading the good memories of that person. I don’t want to be buried in a columbarium (place for peoples ashes) at my church (even though my parents bought my brother and I our niche spots when we were very young). I want my ashes scattered in the wind on the prairies of Kansas. All I want from the end of life is a little bit of remembrance.
I think through all these words I’ve made it pretty clear that I find it damn near impossible to believe in a God. You can try to convince me with evidence…but I’ll tell you right off: I don’t believe the Bible is word from any God any where. You can try to convince me otherwise with stories of yourself being saved or whatever but that won’t work. I’ve already read plenty of stories, coming away from them feeling great about God, but soon realizing the hollow promise the stories have offered: connection, understanding, guidance, love, comfort and refuge from God…things I’ve never experienced.
Please see “A Mountainous Journey” for where I currently stand on these issues!
Wow. I want to offer words of support or comfort but any thing that comes to mind somehow seems inappropriate. Your post sounds sad, at least to me, because I know that your church has always been a HUGE part of your life. Somehow, “Good for you”, sounds fitting.
I have to say though, I was caught off guard when you wrote the bit about speaking in tongues. I’m not sure what I expected but it wasn’t that. That’s in that Borat movie and it’s just one that constantly leaves me with my head shaking…
As for this: How do I tell all the friends I’ve made at youth events, “Hey I don’t believe in God anymore, but I still want to be friends� Hopefully thats not a question you should have to ask. Obviously church friends implies a certain bond, but I would hope that they would still respect you regardless of your beliefs. I know that (well, as far as I know) most of my friends still respect me enough that they continue to talk to me :P.
Now for the more unfortunate words, What kind of community do atheists have?. Unfortunately, due to the nature of atheism (devoid-of-belief) there isn’t much of a community to be had which is rather disappointing and is something that I envy of others’ and their church communities and support structures. Even more sadly, I/We/Atheists seem to be in the vast minority, especially in Kansas, garnering a large number of weird looks, difficult explanations and uncomfortable moments when religious topics are brought up. (example, one of my relatives in the daughter of a minister or something and my family is all very Catholic and very religious so I basically don’t say a thing.
If you want to chat about whatever just give me a ring or an email or a comment or whatever. Good luck with whatever your spiritual future holds.
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I have to say though David, this post was not completely unprecedented (some of your comments on the forum and other places) but I definitely didn’t expect this. Apparently we all have some secret inner thoughts…
Well…I can’t say I’m surprised.
Totally not dissing you at all or anything. And the whole ashes thing? Me too, totally want to be flung out all over the world. Like in the ocean, in space, at Rim Rock…anyway.
So.
Well, as I could have a whole conversation with you about this (not telling you you’re wrong, by the way) but talking about how we’re different. You know the book Life of Pi? That’s me. Have you read the book the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho? (READ IT if you haven’t)
I know, at this point, you’re totally against God. And by the way, sunday morning, I don’t really get anything either. The God that I worship is the same yet totally different than everyone else’s. And I don’t like to say worship, because that’s not exactly what I mean…I could totally delve into this further, I mean, I’m just totally different than you probably think.
The Bible. People try to read it like every word is absolute truth. Well, for one, it was written by a bunch of Jewish guys who lived in a day when women were property. That alone gets me 😉 Maybe it’s bad that I read selectively…haha.
Look, even if you totally don’t believe in God, you can still believe in hope. You can still believe in love. And, you can still believe in believing…because it sounds like you’re going all the way as to not believe in love.
I go to church because I love you guys, you especially, cause I’ve known you the longest and the best. I would do anything for you guys. Love is a miracle. Just being able to see my friends every week is a miracle to me. That’s where I see God.
When I’m at camp, and I look up at the sky, JUST ME, and I feel so insignificant and so small, that’s where I feel something.
I feel something when I’m singing the Howells Collegium Regale mass, that’s passion. Just pure passion. That’s where I see God.
When I’m up there on an airplane at 38,000 feet, scared out of my mind and feeling like we’re going to fall out of the sky, I don’t necessarily get comfort from God. I don’t feel any magic there. But, when my mom holds my hand even though I’m freaking 16 years old, that’s love, and that’s a miracle. Love is a miracle, and that’s how I see God.
When anyone asks me why I think humans are around, it’s because I believe in love. God is love to me. That’s my view, and I could totalllllly talk about it if you want, because i’m not someone who will judge.
SEE YA
@David, Is it fair to say that “you’re totally against God” as Maggie put it? Personally, I’m not AGAINST God by any means, aside from the condemning people to hell thing…
@Maggie, Why is love a product of God? They are two things? Are twix a god-product? I know thats an exaggeration, but is it more that God symbolizes love and you’ve turned the correlation into a causation? Just speculating out of thin air, heck, I’m not even sure if I’ve met you Maggie, so I hope I’m not interpreting things too up-front-ish…
Oh yeah, and I don’t think it’s fair that is has to come down to “believe or not”… Why is it so pivotal?
Cole- I don’t see love as a product of God. It’s difficult to explain. Like, I dunno, that’s just where I see God’s love…in my family, friends, etc. I don’t understand it, but that’s OK with me. There’s so many unanswered questions that people keep trying to answer, and I guess that my views are more like whoa, sit back and smell the coffee and just live your life.
And I don’t think it’s a believe it or not question, not at all. There are some concepts of Christianity that I totally don’t buy, i.e. Creationism, a lot of the Old Testament. I’m not hung up on whether there’s proof or not…but, I don’t like how it is influenced by the culture of the time…read what I mentioned earlier.
Oh and by the way, David, come to church on sunday, even if you don’t give a damn about anything we say. I doubt anyone else will even know about this, and Katie and I are the last people on earth to judge you. 🙂
Thats cool. See Maggie is a cool Christian. (I can’t tell how bad that last statement is in how many different ways).
Maggie, I can accept someone saying “I don’t know, thats what I believe and it feels right” much more than I can accept someone trying to fill in the blanks in absurd ways, of course, once you start leaving the strict-Biblical sense it seems more spiritual than “Christian” per say.
Maggie, do you consider yourself a “Christian” or not or what? Just curious, if so, why? Sorry David, I’m kind of straying from the original topic here, sorry 😛
I do, definately. Even though I don’t believe in some of the old testament stuff, I do believe a pretty cool guy named Jesus died to save us. That’s the hardest thing for me- there’s no proof of it, except for the word of a couple of guys who followed him around. Even if he never lived, the ideas of love and acceptance that he started are enough for me. Faith, for me, is a very personal thing. There’s concepts from many schools of thought that I can understand, and many examples of faith…read the book Life of Pi by Yann Martel, it’s awesome. 🙂
referring to your last paragraph…I’ve already read plenty of stories, coming away from them feeling great about God, but soon realizing the hollow promise the stories have offered: connection, understanding, guidance, love, comfort and refuge from God…things I’ve never experienced.”
have you ever felt those in any way? excluding god for a second? from another person, i mean.
@Katie, I have felt those things from my friends and family in a way that is tangible. A support structure that will talk back to me, that will help me, and guide me, _literally_. When I look for God, I feel a lack of those things sadly, as if its not bad enough that I’m not feeling them, but that when I go looking for them, they aren’t there.
Do people “talk” to God or are they feeling something and how much do you (anyone here) think that it is because they WANT to feel it? or not?
David I’m surprised. I figured you’d have a little varied beliefs on God and church but I never expected you to end your belief in God altogether. Man, I’ve got a lot to say.
David you’re not living for someone that lived 2000 years ago. You’re living for someone that exists in your life now. Of course that all depends on what you think of that. When your youth group speaks of being “wired” for Jesus, they don’t mean you have to live for someone that existed a while ago. They mean that you’re living for someone that is involved in your life right now. I figured you would understand that.
About the tongues thing. This thing is really interesting to me. Ok, I can’t do that thing. I don’t understand tongues at all. Many people don’t. But David just because you can’t feel a connection enough with God to speak in tongues doesn’t mean you abandon him completely. If you don’t feel a true connection with God it doesn’t mean you totally throw out the possibility of his existence.
I actually think it’s kind of weird but in no way do I think it’s jibberish and I absolutely disagree with that. My mom can speak in tongues and I totally don’t get it. But when I listen to people do this thing it seems much deeper than jibberish. Have you ever seen someone speak in tongues alone? It sounds so much more organized than anything like that. I mean, it seems like they’re actually speaking some kind of language; yet they don’t understand what they are saying. It’s so much more than jibberish. There’s no way people like that are just making it up. It seems like more. It seems like spiritual language being sent by God himself. There is no way it is jibberish.
With tongues and talking to God period I simply don’t understand it. I guess I’m just not close enough to God to speak in tongues and to talk to him directly. I don’t get it, but because I can’t talk to him and speak in tongues does not mean that I discontinue belief in him totally.
I am surprised that you’re so closed to possibilities. You see no possibilities of something penetrating your brain impulses and you believe that the idea of God is improbable. But is the idea of God impossible David? Have you ruled out all possibilities? Do you really believe that there is no higher power whatsoever? I can’t imagine. Do you really believe that we have arisen from nothing and the world is nothing more than a pointless evolving universe? You believe in evolution. How deep into evolution are we talking about here? Do you seriously believe that the world before our eyes has come from no-one and all of life has arisen from nothing? And David I definitely see no more proof that life has arisen from nothing out of nowhere than I have seen that life has come from a creator. I don’t think there’s too much more proof and legitimacy to the whole evolution deal than there is to creation but that’s a seperate conversation.
Cole, I’ve seen so much more openness with you here towards religion than I knew you had. It’s refreshing. But just something I wanted to address about seeing God in love. You know Cole, and Maggie, how does love evolve? How do we learn to love like we do being the result of billions of years of evolution? I see love as a human quality that God has put in all of us. We all also have a sense of right and wrong. As soon as we are born us humans have a feeling of what is right and what is wrong. Isn’t that interesting? How does a quality like that evolve to fit in each and every one of our minds? This is just another fault I see in evolution. Something else that makes me doubt that we are all the result of an ameba.
Maggie I definitely find comfort in God with frightening things such as flying. That is another thing that keeps me close to God. I have done very scary things in my life and I have always taken comfort in the fact that God is there. That may be the most important thing I have found in my faith. Also about this Old Testament stuff. I hope you have come to realize the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. There’s a true fine line. The Old Testament was more meant for the Jewish people of that day. There’s a lot of religious stuff said there that really isn’t relevant and really doesn’t matter. The Old Testament is totally different. It’s like a revision.
Another thing I would like to say David is about God appearing to people that need it. I simply have never understood why God doesn’t simply appear to all atheists and nonbelievers out there. And to people like you who were just looking for that extra sign. I’ve never understood it. That’s what gets me real weird about hell and stuff and believing that people would actually go to hell for not finding God. If people would go to hell for not believing then why won’t he give a sign. God has never appeared to me in vision or sound. I have not seen him. I believe in him by faith but my faith is strong enought that I know he is there. You know what I mean? The simple fact that God will not let unbelievers know he is there drives me crazy.
I’m surprised you believe what you believe already. But I don’t believe you’ve ruled out all possibilities; have you?
@Kodi, “As soon as we are born us humans have a feeling of what is right and what is wrong.” I personally disagree with that statement though…
-Kodi…the whole evolution thing, that is how I think of it. I guess I think in sort of a so-called ‘divine intervention.’ I mean, I believe in evolution, but if you’re talking way back, I think it all had to start somewhere…also, I like that you say there are lots of possibilites. There are, of course, other religions, and they seem to be working out just fine..Gandhi (sp) was pretty cool, for instance. Other types of faith. But it would take a superior cynic/proud person to admit that they don’t need help in life, even from another person, excluding God altogether.
man, david, this post has turned into a discussion group 🙂
Cole, for me, when I find those things in my family/friends, I think that helps me find God. I tend to find God in people rather than looking up at the ceiling…I think to a certain extent, when you feel misunderstood, it helps to think/know that there is something around you that knows what you’re doing. I don’t think that when I pray, I’m talking WITH God, I suppose I’m talking TO God. I look for answers in the world, or in people. Everyday miracles, I suppose. No mountain-moving, yet.
David–I don’t believe in predestination, that someone is controlling my actions, my electrical brain impulses, as you say. I think that’s all me. Maybe I’m not close enough to God, but I don’t usually think of God as penetrating my brain or reading my thoughts.
Wow guys – thanks for all the comments here. I knew this would generate discussion but not this much. I could write a little chapter of a novel in response to each of these comments.
Generally – as Cole recognized that this post seemed very sad of me, it isn’t really. I bet some of you could tell this post has been brewing for a least a years time (since before my religion post LAST summer). I’m not depressed or sad, just sick of uncertainties. Absolutely sick of them. My brain is not comfortable with so many unknowns. I find no comfort in unknowns that God may be here, when I can see a lot of things that say there is no God and I know that. There are so many things that happen in this world that, under a God that loves us, make no sense. Another side point – the majority of world problems have sprouted from religion.
When I said I’ve never experienced connection, understanding, guidance, love, comfort and refuge from God – yeah, I get all that stuff from people. I feel great about those qualities that are emitted from people around me – but when people say they see God in other people, to me thats just adding on bulk in a way. “This person is extremely nice and loving and comforting. That definitely can’t be human nature…a God must have done that.” That right there I completely disagree with. I think we all have our instincts and our habits built by society around us, with the need for food and reproduction already built into our brains. Everything stems from that. There isn’t any need, in my mind, to say that “God has blessed her with understanding.” …Nope…she just understands.
Kodi – I don’t know if you got my drift with the tongues – when it happened in the Bible each person heard in their own language. That means I should hear English, not swahili jbberish. Why would God change that over the course of 2000 years, and just make it harder for us to understand? That, again, makes no sense to me.
Maggie – you said “Look, even if you totally don’t believe in God, you can still believe in hope. You can still believe in love. And, you can still believe in believing…because it sounds like you’re going all the way as to not believe in love.” I still believe in love and hope. With this post brewing for a couple of weeks I’ve been looking into a lot of things. Like, in our prayer book, the prayers of the people can be edited to exclude any thing related to God and be renamed to “Hopes of the People.” I think that is how they started any way, and someone said “Lets hope TO something and call them prayers.” I know I still believe in love. At Happening you get a lot of love, and thats one of the best feelings in the world, but I don’t see a requirement of God giving that love. That just makes those people involved, giving that love, even greater in my mind.
More to come…if you guys keep discussing 🙂 Thanks for not hating me. And yeah, I’ll still be heading to church :0
Man, David, you and Lance Armstrong would have a jolly time talking about this stuff, as you’re practically the same. You’re a totally ‘proof’ person…check out his books. They are really good reading, even if you don’t like the guy.
By the way, the tour starts tomorrow, and I’m psyched.
oh and I have a new bad joke for you.
Ok.
So a priest buys a donkey and enters it in a local donkey race. The donkey wins by a longshot; the paper headline the next morning says “Pastor has best ass in town.”
The bishop hears about this and is outraged. Right after the next donkey race (which the Pastor’s donkey wins again), the bishop yells at the priest and tells him to get rid of the donkey. The next morning’s headline says “Bishop scratches pastor’s ass.”
The priest, of course, is very ashamed, so he immediately asks one of the sisters at a nearby convent to take the donkey. The bishop hears about this and immediately demands that she should sell the donkey. The next morning, the paper says “Nun sells ass for $10.”
When he sees this, the bishop faints. After he regains conciousness, he decides that the donkey should just be out of their lives altogether. He tells the nun to go buy back the donkey and release it out to the countryside. The next morning’s paper says “Nun’s ass wild and free.”
hahaha
Ok yeah cool David but first of all I don’t see anything in life that says there is no God. About the problems in the world I totally agree. I have never understood why God would let tragedies happen every day. I’ll tell you what it pretty much pisses me off when atheists jump all over world tragedies and make a point about God with them. I’m not talking about you but like with the psunami about a year ago. I was always seeing atheists on TV and stuff trying to discredit God. It just pisses me off. You know why can’t some atheists just keep their views to themselves? Why does it hurt them if religion exists? Why do some atheists make it their goal in life to discredit the name of God? Anyways yeah I REALLY don’t get why God allows tragedies and that is another thing that I would like to search for an answer to. Oh and many Christians claim that world tragedies are a result of man’s sin on this earth; all kinds of sin. Just a thought.
Also every time I talk to an atheist they always speak of most problems and wars in the world stemming from religion. It gets pretty dang annoying. I don’t think tragedies in the world prove that there is no God and I definitely don’t think that since many problems in the world have come from religion that you should hate religion as a whole because of it. Oh and let’s look to the past twentieth century. David Hitler was an atheist, and so was Stalin, and I could probably go on with more research. Don’t even tell me that atheism hasn’t stemmed any problems!
“Kodi, “As soon as we are born us humans have a feeling of what is right and what is wrong.†I personally disagree with that statement though…”
Cole you disagree that every human being on this planet knows what is the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do? You disagree that every human being on this planet would not commit murder without thinking twice? I don’t care where you are raised, a sense of right and wrong resides in the heart of all human beings. If we have evolved how do we retain a human nature in each and every one of us? Wouldn’t we be able to kill and murder at an animalistic rate without thinking twice? How does humanity evolve? How does love evolve?
Kodi, “You know why can’t some atheists just keep their views to themselves? Why does it hurt them if religion exists? Why do some atheists make it their goal in life to discredit the name of God?” I think that atheists telling about their views are just the same as when christians do. It would be similar to sending a missionary out to spread the ‘word of god’, only instead of wanting people to believe in god they want to try and get others to stop believing. Everyone in the would should have the right to express their opinions and beliefs, or disbelifs, and if you think that Atheists don’t have the right to do that then should christians have the right to try and share their views as well?
about the connection, love stuff…thanks for understanding that although you don’t believe in god, you are indirectly affected by god because some people around you do, and they might do what they do because of this belief, to quote lance armstrong on that one. seriously, what maggie says, you two seem to have a lot in common….
that’s MY joke, by the way. don’t let her go telling you it was hers… 🙂
David, a few questions if you don’t mind. How long has this post been in the making, realistically? Just curious. Have you always felt this way or was there a time that you 100% believed in God and have since changed your mind? (I have others but I can’t remember them.)
again Maggie, I think we have different interpretations, and I would describe what you are describing as you looking for God in people and wanting to see him, which I suppose isn’t a “bad” thing necessarily.
@Kodi, Why should life indicate a lack of God. In my opinion life should show God… You kind of sound rude on your tirade of atheists. Not all atheists are like that, and I would always distinguish between you and Fred Phelps (meaning I wouldn’t lump you two together). There are plenty of Christians who force their beliefs on others as well. Think about your description… does that fit David? This is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists. It’s sadly single-minded. 🙁
I promise you that the religious wars of god-fearing individuals outweighs atheists’ religions hundreds-fold.
AS for the last bit, BTK was a Christian, supposedly. It’s flat out wrong to make a connection between God and morals, especially since I haven’t killed anyone, I don’t lie, and I don’t cheat. I know what is right and wrong, but that is nature not nurture. Here’s an example, why are the people in the Middle East “born” with a sense of terrorism – NO! They are born into a hostile (HOLY WAR, Ironically) and are TOLD to kill, its not in their genetics….
—
Also, David and others, I think it would be incorrect to say that it is only an “evidence” thing. In my opinion, I’ve come to accept that it is more than that for some people, on both sides of the issue – I don’t feel a personal connection with any type of deity, and for me that is more spiritual than anything else. Sure I enjoy defending evolution and fossils, and the latest version of the big bang, but eventually there has to be some form of “faith” – belief without solid evidence. For me, the moral conundrum of hell, and holy wars, and my lack of a personal connection leads me to, sadly, one conclusion.
David, you said this wasn’t a sad post for you, and I’m happy of that. Unfortunately, my frustration and in a sense my loneliness has made me sad of that seeming void… These questions haunt me like I’d imagine they haunt you and it has becoming almost depressing to live each day not knowing their answers and my purpose…
And I did some more looking and Hitler made many statements about the “good lord”, etc, so probably not an atheist, though the articles I read were all about “Hitler: atheist, christian or neither?” so I dunna.
Like Cole I think “good for you†fits here. Unlike Cole though, I’m going to say hell yes!!! To me it is one of the most refreshing things to here when someone that I am friends with and respect has really questioned the existence of god and the whole Christianity thing. It also has not come as a surprise but then again we have had a few lighter discussions on this subject.
To me I find it utterly absurd that people in all religions around the world believe in their god, and have no, absolutely no doubt that theirs is the right one when there are hundreds of gods out there. To have faith in a religion, and only one religion without looking towards others would be like one of us going out to buy a car but not looking around at all the others.
I have to say I agree with you on the idea of some deity being able to look into my brain and know what I’m thinking. That is whack!
What kind of community do atheists have? I have never considered myself to be an atheist but at the same time I do feel that being agnostic I have always been thrown into the category of an atheist. People don’t understand the difference at all and just lump agnostic people into the same category. That would be like me lumping catholics, jews, and muslims, into the same category. They all have one god right so they must be the same. We all know that isn’t true. I think it is some what of a negative stereotype that you are implying when you ask what type of community they have. It is different yes, but less then yours, worse, who can say? It all depends upon what you are used to. I know many people that their community is their church. That is very understandable. However I have never felt any kind of remorse, jealousy of church going people and their communities. I have a very cynical view point on life and I know that. I don’t see a reason to be jealous of a community that is filled with hypocrites, once a week Christians, and a clergy and infrastructure of a church that demands participation for rewards, which demands money of families that can’t afford it.
Why is the question of “believing or not†so pivotal. I believe it is because it is just the same as choosing which god to believe in or which religion to take part in. Because by choosing one or the other you are saying the other one is wrong. By choosing you create a right and a wrong where as if you don’t what is there?
Around the world no matter where you go you will find religions, ceremonies, and deities being worshiped. It doesn’t matter where you go, you will find it. Now why is that? As humans we have an intellectual side that will not let us forget what we don’t know. That we need to know why we are here. We need an explanation as to why anything is. Hence the creation of god, or some deity. I believe it was my brother that once told me about an article he read about a secluded jungle village that worshipped a coke bottle that fell out of the sky. What makes any god much different than that? Those people fully believed that the bottle was to be worshiped, they could have picked the sun, a tree, or anything else.
That’s it for now.
Yeah Betsy you don’t understand what I mean. I’m perfectly fine with atheists sharing their views I mean obviously they have the right to. I’m speaking of the atheists that attempt to destroy faith. I mean the ones that actually feel better when someone loses their faith. I was wondering why some atheists care so much about other’s not believing in God. Why they have to make it their goal to destroy religion. When Christians spread their religion they are doing it because they have experienced the love of God. They would like other people to experience it for themselves. That’s a little different than campaigning to ruin faith that people already hold simply because they don’t believe in God themselves.
On that note. Cole, when did I say that life should indicate a lacque of God? Life should not indicate a lacque of God it should indicate a presence of him. I didn’t say that life should indicate a lacque of God. And Cole, buddy, I wasn’t talking about all atheists. That’s why I said some atheists in my closing statement on the subject! And I sure as heck wasn’t talking about David! Why do you think I said “I’m not talking about you”? I thought I made that pretty clear. And you already heard my view of Christians spreading their views above. I’m not trying to sound rude and remember I was only talking about certain atheists; not you!
True Cole religious wars would outweigh atheist caused wars and I know that. By deaths and tragedy, I really don’t know, and I could go deep into that. I never made a connection between God and morals. Did I ever say atheists don’t have morals? No. Yes it is your nature to know right from wrong, but the same thing goes for all human beings. Yes Middle Eastern terrorists become the way they are because of their environment that’s true. So what’s your point? They still are born with a sense of right and wrong. Religious terrorism has nothing to do with conscience. You learn to be a terrorist, you are born with a conscience.
About Hitler:
“I regard Christianity as the most fatal, seductive lie that ever existed.”-Hitler.
Hitler was no Christian. Hitler used Christianity as his cover to spread his murderous message. Hitler even had Nazi baptisms. He was a liar. Hitler used Christianity yet was no Christian himself.
Oh and Hitler was a big believer in evolution. In fact, this wonderful theory, or fact as I think you ignorantly put it, was the driving force behind his genocide. There’s a difference between someone who believes that we are a common people created by a common creator, and someone who looks at us as a conglomerate of biologicals and chemicals. Hitler believed that people with blond hair and blue eyes were pure Aryan, he believed that Germans were predominately Aryan, Mediterranean people were slightly Aryan, Slavic people were half ape, Oriental people were of slight ape preponderance, Black people were mostly ape, and Jewish people were close to pure ape. Hitler was a big believer in evolution, and he would have to be to believe this. Hitler believed he was speeding up the evolution process by eliminating these “inferiors”. The winner of the 1936 Olympics track competition was the great Jesse Owens; a black man. These Olympics were hosted in Germany. During one race Hitler got up in anger saying that it is unfair for his men to compete against this “animal”. Hitler believed the Jewish people were parasites, that they were un-evolved. Not only did Hitler believe this but so did the Japanese. The Japanese believed that they had less hair than all other peoples so they had evolved farther from the apes. They also believed that they had a milder body odor to separate them farther from the animals. Yes, evolution was a big factor in the cause of World War II. So don’t think for a minute that your religion of atheism backed by evolution hasn’t caused any problems in this world and not for one second that it hasn’t killed people.
Cole you don’t have to defend fossils. Us Christians aren’t attacking fossils. Fossils aren’t on your side Cole. Don’t give me that. And a new version of the big bang. Oh, educate me Cole please! How exciting the evolutionists have altered their views again! Man if evolution were so intellectually superior to creationism and factually proven wouldn’t the theory of the beginning of it all be a little more solid? Or does it just seem like more and more bullshit as the days move on so the evolutionists have to change it up a little. Oh snap! But seriously I want to know more about the latest version of the big bang. Yeah!
James to call any given church a bunch of hypocrites is out of line. You don’t take a few bad Christians and label the entire faith in that way. And how the heck does the church demand money for people that don’t have it? If anything the church is giving money to the people that don’t have it. James it is also your opinion that God was created by humans for a sense of security of where we have come from. I personally believe that Christianity has arisen from the actual experiences of Jesus Christ. Do not think for a minute that I am a Christian and I believe in God to feel good about where we have come from. I am a Christian because I have experienced his love and look at the world as much more planned and beautiful then billions of years of evolution.
“Us Christians aren’t attacking fossils” But at least its better than a BOOK
Seriously, I’m just not going to respond to your bull shit about Hitler. Five minutes of research determines that no one really knows and I’m really tired of your remarks that have only one intention of making me upset because you are trying to link evolution and genocide. Should I mention Bloody Mary right now? Fred Phelps? Other Christians who have done awful things. The debate is not a damned body count. Move along. If you want to debate evolution then pick out specific areas where there is question: Like with the various theorie(S) of evolution: gradualism Vs punctuated equillibrium -> single-cell to multi-cell. There are tons of good wholesome debate arguments that don’t incur HITLER! OH NOES!
Please, reread my paragraph though, the point was NOT to say that science is right – It was to say that EACH have a certain amount of faith taken to believe in them… It’s a much more moderate point then you’re giving me credit for.
By the way, evolution IS NOT eugenics and that is exactly the things that extremists say to justify their position, now can we please have an intelligent conversation?
BTW, Have you seen the creationist’s church. It most certainly tries to attack fossils. Oh wait, you don’t actually believe that people RODE dinosaurs do you?
Cole you’re back so soon! Alright Cole I love you buddy. I don’t even know you but whatever. I figured that was a very intelligent conversation but whatever. It was more of a heated response on my part rather than unintelligent. But you know Cole that’s how I wanted it to come across. Sometimes I read something and I just feel you know heated at the moment so that’s how I write. But yeah I’ll ease down and we can have a loving conversation between atheist and Christian. Isn’t that cute. But seriously let’s talk.
When I said we aren’t attacking fossils I meant that the creationist argument definitely does not go against fossils if you understood what I meant. And Cole, you’re damn right I’m trying to link evolution and genocide. I’m not saying that the purpose of evolution is just that but that’s what I’m saying. You see Cole if you are going to make a comment on religion causing problems on this world than I am going to bring my own problems with your religion. You made a statement and I responded. I’m sorry. I’m just tired of atheists spouting this crap about religion causing tragedy so I let my side of the story in. If you’re going to bring up a point be prepared to debate on it.
I don’t want to debate specific parts of evolution because Cole I think you know by now I think the theory as a whole is bullshit. I am tired of evolutionists saying that creation is stupid, retarded and unproven and evolution is scientific, observed, and intellectual. I don’t see it and I’m tired of it. And I’m tired of atheists and evolutionists being the “logical” ones. That’s what I’d like to debate. I would love to debate evolution though.
If you’re really saying that each one takes a certain amount of faith then I am surprised that you believe that and am impressed. It’s true. Um I think I know what you’re talking about. I don’t know how the heck it’s attacking fossils. And I believe that at one point dinosaurs lived with humans. Yes I know you think I’m crazy but there is further discussion to be had. Let’s have an intelligent conversation Cole. I’m just passionate.
Can we let the Hitler vs Religious War argument go? I think that extremists are the cause of most if not all problems and I would NEVER mean to imply that that is a representation of the whole of Christianity and I’m sorry if I implied that…
But the problem is, religion is the direct cause of those wars, and atheism is not what caused Hitler to attack the jewish population. EVOLUTION IS NOT EUGENICS. Read up on eugenics and read up on evolution, hell if anything they are truly opposites. So, can we move on to like specifics of evolution and stop the fighting (I might cry)… (not really) 😛
Have you taken biology? No offense but the only constructive argument I’ve heard against evolution is that it is the feces of livestock (bullshit) so I’ve yet to have something to respond to. On the other hand I would be happy to discuss the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Canonization that intentionally left out books that didn’t depict Jesus as divine, the date inconsistencies or others… seriously, specifics are much more fun to debate…
As for that last bit, that is what I’m saying, absolutely, everything requires a degree of faith. I completely respect your passion and I hope that I’m not giving you the wrong vibe, this is all in debate and deep discussions… As for the challenging-fossils-bit, that is one of those crazy extremes that I was making an example of. I await our further discussion!!
Well, I don’t mean to interrupt, but here are my thoughts on the entire ordeal:
In regards to Hitler’s religiousity, I always understood that he was very keen on using the elements of religion he liked and would keep him in power. Very much a Machiavellian Religious opportunism. Then again, this particular argument concerning Hitler suffers from the an association fallacy “Reductio ad Hitlerum” . It is much like saying that Hitler was a vegetarian, and therefore all vegetarians are wrong. Whether He was atheist, deist, Christian, Shinto, or Wotenist doesn’t really effect the truth value of any of them, and doesn’t reflect poorly on subsequent adherents.
This can futhermore extend to the belief that religion is the cause of a majority of conflicts. At least on a grand scale, I can see very few conflicts that are truly primarily motivated by religion. The Crusades? The simple fact of the matter is that the Pope was closely allied with the Byzantine Empire, who were under increasing pressure from the Ottoman Turks, later Crusades being fought namely because of resource and trade road control. While many who fought thought the purpose religious, the cause of the wars were mostly political (read: economic). I think that economic reasons (ie. Water control, resources) or Political reasons are far more abundant, even if these wars are cloaked in religiousity. And while these were fought by Christians, once again to denote the truth value of a philosophy based on its adherents is an association fallacy.
To say that Eugenics is caused by evolution is something of a ‘moral panic’, in my opinion. It also breaks Godwin’s Law, but thats another story. Eugenics, at least when it was practiced (fun fact: it would still be legal to do that now, according to the Supreme Court), was more based on Nativism, Racism, and dislike of the handicapped, which have a melange of atheistic and religious proponents. Now, I find very few evolutionists (or anyone for that matter) flocking to Eugenics.
Evolution, in any event, is not really a religious debate. I know Christians who believe in evolution (including myself), and that it is more of a how, than a why. I see no particular reason why God couldn’t work through evolution. Albeit, in my opinion, evolution has a gap for why life started in the first place, since it is after all, a theory which states that life cannot come out of non-life. But I’m not going to speculate on that.
I have more I’d like to write, but I must depart. Keep it a bit civil, please?
:o) Hey David!
Wow! What a post! James was telling me about it, and I knew I had to look it up for myself.
Dare I say it saddens me to read this? Your whole life up to this point has been hugely influenced by your Church, and I know it must be incredibly hard to feel that perhaps all you’ve trusted in may be wrong. I kind of know how you feel, except in the opposite manner. All of my 17 years I’ve grown up outside of the Church, and now to be saved by Christ, I cant help but think ‘what the heck was I doing these last 17 years?’. I know I feel very betrayed and hurt by the people around me who failed to influence me of God, and maybe you are feeling betrayed too but in the opposite way-‘betrayed’ -though a harsh word – by following something you don’t truly believe.
(Did that make any sense?)
I just hope that you continue to strive for answers be it in a non believer out look, as well as a believer out look.
If you ever want to hash it all out sometime, give me a call. Meeting up for hot chocolate or french fries, or burritos (i’m hungry!) and discussing (not argueing of course!) religion in a non-threatening, non offensive way is the best! Or reminicing (sp?) over AP nightmares – that’s fun too!
Anywho, I hope that you are able to keep up with the amazing relationships you’ve made in your Church, and are able to reach some sort of peace of mind. Confusion is not fun.
Have a great weekend!
Mandy
David and I have been speaking and watching some funny videos and I think we’ve concluded that Church and having-a-faith-with-God are two separate things. One more healthy than the other. How many call themselves “Christians”, yet don’t have a special connection? Right David?
In reference to Joel’s post, would it be safe to say that mixed up here there are several debates:
– Evolution as a theory
– Evolution and its role in Christianity
– Christianity as a theory
– The morals that Christianity upholds
– Being a “Christian”
Maybe I’m being too specific but I think that those are more the core issues… Aside from David’s original post of course.
Yeah Cole – there is a big difference between religion and a relationship…neither of which I currently favor…as we talked about. To me, right now there are so many things that don’t add up, so many ends that come up short, that I don’t have any confidence in a relationship with a deity, let alone its existence. The same is true for my views of the Bible.
I’m glad to see all this discussion. It looks like everyone might be getting stronger in their own views, with no convincing going on either way…but its still good. However I didn’t see responses to my spiritual struggles turning into a Hitler debate. lol. Thats okay though. Keep debating, I’ll keep thinking.
By the way – I got a book from the library today “Letter to a Christian Nation” recommended by James…it uses the Bible to discredit the Bible…pretty interesting logic. Don’t think I’m one sided though: I’ve also requested “Case for the Creator” “Case for Christ” and “The God Delusion.” I’ll be doing a lot more reading and contemplating now that I’ve taken the step of giving this personal issue more priority.
Keep discussion alive. Good stuffz.
Im curious as to your thoughts on Case for Creator…I really liked it, but I’m so new to it all that I don’t really have much to compare it to
Some of those books have PDF’s. I guess I justify it morally cause I’m gonna borrow the book from the library anyway- but I don’t think I could read a book on my pc screen… my eyes may bleed.
Kodi: Why can’t I lump those christians together and make a point. You did it with athiests that want to destroy faith. You make them out to be some kind of horrible people that take pleasure in something horrible. It’s not horrible, it’s only horrible to you because you believe in god and you want other people to believe in god. Atheists trying to convert people is the same as christians converting, if you are too blind sighted to see that then you really need to have a wake up call. Christians spend millions, and millions of dollars a year to convert people, atheists spend… no where near that. Money- if you read my post I didn’t say people that didn’t have money I said people that really can’t afford it. Why could god not have been created out of a need for security? I don’t know how many times I have heard the response of “I was really down, I had a horrible thing happen to me, and god helped me through it.” Why isn’t evloution beautiful?
James – You mentioned the “I was really down, I had a horrible thing happen to me, and god helped me through it.†type of comment. I’ve heard this from many different people. I don’t want to sound mean, but I think people say that because they don’t believe in their own personal strengths. I think its a mental thing. A lot of people are too hard on themselves and can’t comprehend that they got through what they got through on their own. This will sound REALLY nerdy, but it reminds me of the 6th Harry Potter book, where Harry PRETENDS to give Ron Felix Felicius (that luck potion). Ron mentally thinks he has luck on his side and does really great at everything all day. Thats like thinking you have God by your side, when you very may not have anything there. The human mind is so complicated, and that is what makes this whole “God Issue” go dang complicated.
I think it depends on the magnitude of the problem. For instance, in my life, nothing ‘that’ bad has happened to me, so I can’t really say much about it. But I have talked with/met people who have much bigger problems than me, and I can see how their belief, maybe not even necessarily proof of God, helped them through. But yeah, some things I can see where you come from saying that. But I’ve never had an actual big problem like that, not trying to sound pretentious/showy in any way. I just haven’t.
Oh, and by the way, I’ll let you know the answers to all these questions when I die. 🙂 hahahahahahaha. try to lighten up this grave-ish discussion.
But in that case an imaginary friend would work the same. Think about little kids with imaginary friends. They KNOW they are real until someone constantly tells them it isn’t. They comfort them, and love them, yet they aren’t real. They are a security blanket, a fallback, an illusion. Why is God any different?
I don’t know. I guess some people choose to believe in God, and some don’t. I don’t think there has to be a right and a wrong to everything.
oh, and david, how do you download those ringtones? i know everyone else writing must be familiar and i probably sound really stupid, but you know me…
DAVID if you’re checking out books, put Paulo Coelho on your reading list. Pleeeassse just do it. Read the Alchemist. Just do it. You might think it’s totally weird…I did. But he’s a really good writer…and his view of everything is realllllly interesting. Ya.
Do it.
Oh and Joel, you’re my hero. Totally.
And I think we can ALL safely say that fred phelps is wack. totally. if that offends anyone, i’m not sorry, you need to sort yourself out. 😛
he was outside our church one day when my sister was thurifer. (incense person) the whole group of them were telling my sister and my friend’s dad that they were wearing nice dresses.
we all just went back inside and laughed.
I haven’t really followed all the comments because I haven’t been here.
God is different than an imaginary friend because the friend is there to make the person feel good and tell the person what they want to hear.
God convicts, moves, challenges, and changes people. Show me someone who has an imaginary friend that will call them to deny self, leave their comfort zone and come to something bigger than themself. There isn’t anyone because an imaginary friend is something created to serve self whereas God is our creater and we are here for Him.
You can tell me I’m wrong Heather, but I don’t believe that.
My imaginary friend made me feel GREAT!
BTW, God has never made, encouraged, or influenced me to do any of those things. And as far as I’m concerned, those things are like David said above, indicative of a lack of self confidence and a need to attribute them to a higher order.
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Oooh. I was rereading comments and Kodi’s thoughts on “evolution of love” is a very interesting thought. I would argue that my dogs are capable of “love” to some degree but a frog? a mosquito? a bee? I dunno… interesting thoughts. Probably could be put on a similar scale of what animals truly have consciousness… etc…
“made me feel great”
“self confidence”
“as far as I’m concerned”
The world has taught us that life is about us and to put ourselves first. Imaginary friends aid in that self centeredness- they are a result of self love.
But the message of Jesus and the Bible is drastically different. In Matthew 16:24 it says to deny one’s self. Jesus says to love others and die to ourselves.
If God is my imaginary friend, why am I convicted, challenged, moved, and changed?
Oh well, I’m perfectly happy with self love and I’m still not convinced that God isn’t a form of self love. It’s a weird sort of self assurance and something to believe in, the motivation that your life otherwise lacks… etc… Deny one’s self? Die to ourselves? Then why the hell are we stuck here on this hell-hole with the only hope to live out our miserables lives to end up in “heaven” with a dictator who has absolute control?
I also have come to the conclusion that believing in god is as silly as the superstition that the date – 7/7/07 has some sort of significance.