If you know me, you know have I a very strict set of morals. I don’t like alcohol, firmly believe in abstinence, and generally dislike dishonest, unrespectful people. Not becuase I demand that for myself, but becuase I can’t stand it when someone doesn’t give someone, such as a teacher, the respect they deserve.
Anyways, this set of morals stemmed from an upbringing that included lots of church. With dad being employed by the church, and a family history of church go-ers, thats what we did every Sunday. From third grade forward, I’ve been in children’s choir, handbell choir, and the acolytes. I’ve also been a faithful attendant of Sunday school classes.
I think ever since I was little it was just a responsibility to go to church. “Opp, its Sunday morning, let’s go!” sort of thing. Recently I’ve heard, seen, and felt some things that give me some ideas.
I guess, first off, I want to say that I’m just not “getting it.” Is there really something there? If there are so many scientists on earth that don’t think there is a higher being, why are millions and millions of people didicated to God, or many gods? If some claim church is just another business, why do sooo many flock to listen on Sunday mornings? Why do religious people call others “blind”? Are they really right, or are they the blind ones?
Now as I said earlier, many of my morals came from church going. I love going to church, so I can listen to the sermon, and learn something about life. I’ll quite honestly say that I like it better when the message of the sermon has less to do with the bible and religion. Like something about priorities. If the priest says something about thinking about putting church and God as number one, or something of that fashion, then I just (and I dunno if this is bad) use it as an analogy to apply to something else in life. Like, am I not giving enough time to family? Something of that matter.
I don’t exactly know my stance of now. But I have heard some interesting views the past couple weeks. Like about all this evolution stuff. For the longest time I’ve thought that God oversaw evolution, and that the six days of creation were actually six periods of time, spanning perhaps 500 million years.
Mr. Scollon says that many, many scientists that are NOT “Christian” or otherwise religious, have searched and searched for *key* evidence of evolution. They CANNOT find ANY concrete evidence of a transformation taking one hundred generations – going from monkey to human. NONE. We don’t have pictures, birth records…any crap like that. And it is just the same with Creationism. These scientists have concluded that there is no possible way to completely prove evolution, and that somehow there MUST be an intelligent designer.
So what is it? Creationism? Evolutionism? or Intelligent Design?
And quite honeslty, I’m not feeling the whole religion thing. I went to play with the Mustard Seeds this afternoon, and I felt kind of withdrawn. Like confused, awkward, and somewhat uninterested.
What am I? A believer? An athiest? Where did I come from? A single cell? The mind of a higher being.
Please answer my many questions. Comment.
Mr. Scollon is an idiot. Besides that I don’t know what to think. I think Kansas made the right decision though. A lot of people are up in arms about allowing religion in schools but you know what? the issue of evolution etc is still up to the School Board.
Personally, I think they should teach all 3 and lets students decide.
The whole religion thing is fuzzy. Quite honestly I look at it like this. The proof of God is some books written by people (humans) whom we all know are prone to lying and decieving. Whereas DNA proves LITERALLY that we are 97% the same as monkeys and there are skeletons that help prove the same concept.
David, don’t you remember last year Mr. Giddens (or whoever you had) and how they found Lucy and everything and how SHE was the link between humans and apes.
I dunna what to think but until I see some hard evidence either way… “thats my story and I’m sticking to it”
“until I see some hard evidence either way…”
There won’t ever be either way. There is no proving either thing 100%. Ever. Unless you find a camera from 100,000,000BCE or something. Or catch a picture of an angel.
Maybe there isn’t anything to believe either way…
Oh and I can’t believe you think Mr Scollon is an idiot. This will sound REALLY corny, but Mr Scollon has helped me to define who I am these past couple years. He is full of wisdom and knowledge. I don’t think I’ve learned more from any other teacher, ever. Not just about Spanish…but about English, history, religion, life, etc.
Isn’t Scollon your Spanish teacher. You didn’t answer my question… don’t you remember studying about Lucy.
BTW: Is Mr. Scollon religious. I would bet a dollar to a dime he is.
BTW: I don’t actual think hes stupid… I just think hes wrong to be talking about that stuff at school. You can get in trouble for that (although now with KS that might not be true…)
Yes I remember Lucy. But what evidence is that that five generations before her were apes, and five after were humans? None. Just another skeleton that looks a bit different. Just some computer animation to sketch a really hairy human.
Of course he is religious. And he always asks if we mind him talking like that. And all of us are usually interested in what he has to say, if it’s religious or not. As long as he doesn’t force anything upon, it’s not bad. In any state.
I’m just saying. Don’t EVEN try to tell me that you think his opinion is unbiased.
Enjoy: http://www.becominghuman.org/
“I’m just saying. Don’t EVEN try to tell me that you think his opinion is unbiased.”
I’m just saying. It doesn’t MATTER. Don’t EVEN try to tell me that I didn’t say he was relating to us what a number of scientists had said. He didn’t just make it all up.
Anyways. I went to church today. And I’m still lost for a definition of anything. What do I think? I have no idea. I’m on the fence, I guess.
I used to believe in evolution, but now I’m not sure.
becominghuman.org was interesting…but still not 100% provable.
VERY well put David. Every second I was reading, I was like “that’s exactly how i feel”.
I don’t want to doubt something that I have believed in for so so long, but it’s hard not to wonder. I hate admitting it, because really don’t want to put myself in this state of indecision, but I’m becoming open to other possibilities.
I guess it’s not wrong, but it FEELS wrong, because it also feels like I’m in some way going to be punished for thinking the way I am. I’m sure a lot of people can relate.
but the one thing that keeps going through my mind (and David expecially take note of this) is everything that I have said to others about why I believe (believed?). Such as: “having faith in something that can’t be proven is what makes it so special” etc.
And David, do you ever feel like you don’t want to believe just because you know it’s easier not to?
I just don’t know, but hopefully we’ll end up on the right path.
good luck.
*conversation between Billy and I: Sunday evening*
[18:50] PresBillyGates: anyways….
[18:50] PresBillyGates: i really like your stuff on religion
[18:50] wingerspoon: yeah? tell me what you think
[18:50] PresBillyGates: I honestly am in almost the EXACT same state of mind right now
[18:50] PresBillyGates: i know exactly how you feel about it
[18:51] PresBillyGates: i think
[18:51] PresBillyGates: i don’t want to doubt what I’ve been believing in for so long, but it’s impossible not to
[18:52] wingerspoon: yeah
[18:52] wingerspoon: exactly
[18:52] wingerspoon: comment
[18:52] wingerspoon: brb my bro is here
[18:52] PresBillyGates: k
[18:56] wingerspoon: ok i’m back
[18:56] wingerspoon: so like we were saying
[18:56] wingerspoon: yeah, i guess i’m full of doubt
[18:57] wingerspoon: and searching for the truth, whether its for the religion or against it
[18:57] PresBillyGates: exactly
[18:57] wingerspoon: so what do you think?
[18:57] PresBillyGates: lemme finish my comment
[18:57] PresBillyGates: then read it
[18:57] PresBillyGates: one sec
[18:57] wingerspoon: oh ok
[19:01] PresBillyGates: therr ya go
[19:01] PresBillyGates: that’s a lot of writing
[19:05] wingerspoon: ok lemme read
[19:05] wingerspoon: sorry for the delay
[19:05] PresBillyGates: and i like your sense of humor in the other articles
[19:05] wingerspoon: writing a post on the pearl drum forum
[19:05] PresBillyGates: oh i see
[19:05] wingerspoon: yeah i’m working on the humor lol
[19:05] PresBillyGates: that’s aight
[19:07] wingerspoon: hmmm
[19:07] PresBillyGates: ???
[19:07] wingerspoon: people keep saying “church is a business”
[19:07] PresBillyGates: go on…
[19:07] wingerspoon: blah blah balh
[19:08] wingerspoon: if it really is, why do so many people buy into it, in a way?
[19:08] PresBillyGates: nah
[19:08] PresBillyGates: no way
[19:08] wingerspoon: thats what i hear a lot
[19:08] PresBillyGates: well, you don’t even have to buy into it either
[19:08] PresBillyGates: honestly, that’s pretty stupid
[19:08] PresBillyGates: who said that?
[19:09] PresBillyGates: and what’d you think of my comment?
[19:09] wingerspoon: not literally “buy” …like tithing, ….cole says it all the time lmao
[19:09] wingerspoon: i agree with what you are saying
[19:09] PresBillyGates: yeah
[19:09] wingerspoon: it is hard to question…but to feel better, i need to question
[19:10] PresBillyGates: yeah
[19:10] wingerspoon: i have accepted alot, but now i stop and think
[19:10] PresBillyGates: yeah
[19:10] wingerspoon: i dunno why
[19:10] wingerspoon: but i do, and everyday all of it seems less and less “believeable”
[19:10] wingerspoon: i know that sounds terrible
[19:10] wingerspoon: but thats how i feel
[19:10] PresBillyGates: no i know exactly
[19:11] PresBillyGates: i don’t think it’s terrible
[19:11] PresBillyGates: not at all
[19:11] PresBillyGates: it feels wrong because we’re going against something we’ve believed in for almost ever
[19:11] PresBillyGates: you know what I mean?
[19:11] wingerspoon: yeah
[19:11] wingerspoon: but is it really right or wrong? lol
[19:11] PresBillyGates: we’ll never know
[19:11] PresBillyGates: NEVER
[19:12] PresBillyGates: which is kinda scary
[19:12] PresBillyGates: until we die
[19:12] wingerspoon: yeah
[19:12] PresBillyGates: then we’ll know
[19:12] wingerspoon: exactly
[19:12] wingerspoon: or maybe we wont know
[19:12] wingerspoon: becuase maybe it will just end
[19:12] PresBillyGates: right
[19:12] wingerspoon: so does it really make it better to think about it all for now?
[19:12] PresBillyGates: i don’t know
[19:12] wingerspoon: or would we be better off not thinking or worrying about death?
[19:13] wingerspoon: and not worry about what religion is all about
[19:13] PresBillyGates: i think personally that we should worry about the life we’re living
[19:13] wingerspoon: yeah..like i said, my morals are strong. i don’t need church to get them…they’re set
[19:14] PresBillyGates: right… and morals will get us through life without hopefully too much sin
[19:14] PresBillyGates: so the bug question is…..
[19:14] wingerspoon: bug lol
[19:14] wingerspoon: is…..
[19:14] PresBillyGates: if we don’t believe… but live a good life…… will we still have a chance of being “saved”
[19:15] wingerspoon: and is there really “saving” to be done?
[19:15] PresBillyGates: no way to tell
[19:15] wingerspoon: exaclty…nother part of the big question
[19:15] PresBillyGates: but you COULD play it safe
[19:15] PresBillyGates: and truly believe
[19:15] PresBillyGates: wow
[19:15] wingerspoon: yeah
[19:15] PresBillyGates: doesn’t this give you a headache?
[19:15] wingerspoon: yeah
[19:16] PresBillyGates: but it’s so important though
[19:16] wingerspoon: but is it really?
[19:16] PresBillyGates: haha
[19:16] wingerspoon: maybe its not
[19:16] PresBillyGates: wow
[19:16] PresBillyGates: again
[19:16] PresBillyGates: you’re right
[19:16] wingerspoon: lol
[19:16] PresBillyGates: but it’s important because it could define the way we live the rest of our life
[19:17] wingerspoon: yes
[19:17] PresBillyGates: i think what we should do is ask why we believed in the FIRST place
[19:17] wingerspoon: i did, because thats just what the family did on sundays
[19:17] wingerspoon: …born into it
[19:17] PresBillyGates: that will give us a reason to keep believing/believe again
[19:17] PresBillyGates: and…..
[19:17] PresBillyGates: just like you….
[19:17] PresBillyGates: it’s a family thing
[19:18] PresBillyGates: but then you could say that we were MEANT to be rasied by our families going to church
[19:18] PresBillyGates: so that we would believe
[19:18] wingerspoon: argh
[19:18] PresBillyGates: i just don’t know
[19:20] wingerspoon: can I put this coversation as a comment on my site?
[19:20] PresBillyGates: yeah fo sho
[19:20] PresBillyGates: go ahead
[19:20] wingerspoon: cool
[19:20] wingerspoon: thanks
[19:20] wingerspoon: are we done discussing?
[19:20] wingerspoon: lol
[19:21] PresBillyGates: i would say so
[19:21] PresBillyGates: we got A LOT out
[19:21] wingerspoon: yeah
[19:21] wingerspoon: we just got to keep thinking, and make our decisions as needed, i guess
[19:21] wingerspoon: alright posting…
[19:21] wingerspoon: lol
[19:22] PresBillyGates: cool
people keep saying “church is a businessâ€
I’ve never EVER heard that. Where’ve you heard that at?
Don’t you guys think its a LITTLE bit strange that all the religions tell you one thing:
Don’t question your religion.
What kind of standard is that?
i can say i agree with you on lots of this. dang, you have long aim conversations.
although i must say that i like to apply stuff i hear about God to my life, but i like to hear about what jesus would do. i mean he’s JESUS. he’s pretty cool. i especially like today’s stewarship campaign sermon. ‘where your heart is, there your treasure will be also’ i think…
mustard seeds are cool, but i can only really feel a vibe when all of us are together. like at miqra.
THANKS FOR COMIN TO THE CONCERT 🙂 makes me happy
have fun at shhs, because sw is boring except for english. and band when i actually get to play, because the saxes or clarinets or whatever always need help and we always have to sit and take naps which can be kind of nice
ok guys……..for one, Cole is wrong..sorry but its true. If there is one thing that we as Christians teach is that it is very natural to question and seek out God and who you know him to be. As for the convo btwn Billy and David, being saved one of the most important parts of being a Christian. It doesnt matter how many good deeds you do, if you have not accepted Jesus and your personal Lord and savior and do not have a relationship with him, then to put it bluntly you are not going to heaven. This may sound cruel but its the truth. John 3:16-17 says that: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
This in itself proves that God sent Jesus to be a ransom for our sins, and through him and ONLY him we are saved. John 14:6 says : Jesus answered. “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
God and Jesus are so much more than something we do on sundays, if you truly are saved you make them number one, I could not live and would not want to live if I did not have Jesus in my life.
I want you guys to check out my online diary, http://www.opendiary.com/haystiger15
I very strongly encourage you all to seek God’s word and pray, asking him to give you clarity and give you a sign. If you do not want to do this or do and still have questions, I challenge you to find someone you trust who is strong in their faith and the church to talk to and ask.
I hope you find the answers you are so desperately searching for. I will pray for all of you.
God Bless,
~*Hallie*~
Sorry Hallie. I’m gonna be cynical to make a point (not to be rude).
You idalize everything that I despise about religion. Your testimony
provides for no amount of wonder or doubt. You don’t even accept the
ability to question your god because you’re told not to. I WONDER
WHY?!
I was watching today, in History, how Islam formed. Some guy went on a
mountain and “angels spoke to him”. He became/was a prophet and
managed to start an entire religion.
Now, put all other issues aside and tell me if you would believe me if
I told you that as I sat here typing this angels came and told me that
I had to start a new religion promoting worshiping asteriods because
thats how life started on Earth.
Would you believe me? Would I be able to start a religion?
The most I can give to religion is that… dang either some people are
mighty gullible or they are really convincing.
I’m telling you this as a person who used to have a strong faith. I
use to goto Church almost every Sunday until we virtually stopped
going when the issues with the Catholic priests came out and its given
me time to analyze things and look at it from another perspective.
Think about never being told about god. Think about you knowing
NOTHING about it or where you came from. HOW ABSURD WOULD IT BE if I
came up to you and say “hey, some (thing) that I can’t prove exists or
ever did… somehow created you and me and everything in 6 days (or
w/e) from nothingness…
I don’t know what to think. I can’t say there is no god or God. All I
know is that years ago Romans and Greeks were die-hard convinced that
there were many gods and they worshiped all of them. Now we look back
and think about how dumb they are. Thin k about what the future
generations may think of us when they realize that we believed in
something that offers no proof and yet asks us to devote our entire
lives to it…
Again. I’m not saying God exists… but what if he does. WHY ARE WE
WORSHIPING HIM!?! Should we worship George Washington??????
I don’t know how the universe was formed… but I know that I’m not
devoting my life to something that I have no evidence of actually
existing.
____
IF YOU ARE GONIG TO COMMENT… please at least take the time to read
my entire comment.
____
first of all I’d like to let you all know that I’ve decided there is too much good in this life for there not to be a higher power. and thank you haley for you comments and I can tell how strongly you really believe. however, i do still find ithard not to question some things that are taught by my religion and some things in the bible. and even for all those quotes you posted from it, i can find something else in the bible that contradicts or makes it more complicated.
and cole, I’m just not even going to say anything because I’ve heard your arguements so may times already. in fact they are honestly the origin of the doubt i had.
btw i go a hundred percent on cole’s views
and most religous pll r just blind and have a wall set up to b “this is the way it is””this is how i was taught”, i mean how is your religion right and others r’nt?
my view is religion was made up to keep ppl “caged” and working properly without murder and chaos
…..because long ago they figured they’d get nowhere with ppl dieng and fighting, so instead of gov’t lets create somethin that worx
the end
You little booger Billy. I missed your last comment.
Anyways. Billy. I have a question for you. If I came and told you that I was the last prophet and God had new information and I needed to start a new religion …. would you believe me?
THATS EXACTLY HOW ISLAM STARTED!
The Bible is a work of literature. What if I handed you Harry Potter and told you to start worshipping Harry Potter. Its fiction! I’m not saying that the Bible is fiction BUT WHY SHOULD WE ASSUME OTHERWISE.
I know that the Holocaust happened because I can go see the concentration camps. I know the civil war happened because I can see the artifacts. I can see that we evolved from apes BECAUSE I can see the DNA and because I can SEE the skeletons of half-humans half-apes!
Where is that kind of proof of ANY religion? Why in the world should I believe that.
You talk about the massive human life and how there must be a greater being… how about billions of years ago when the earth was a rock bubbling with sea water that by a 1 in a BILLION GAZILLION happened to combine into biological life. WAS THAT SOME GREATER BEING? (I’m emphasizing that not yelling)
So. I will consider possible thinking about this more at the point in time in which you show me any proof that God ever existed!
Isn’t a BIT convient that Moses smashed the Ten Commandments? A LITTLE BIT! Isn’t it strange that there is no proof what so ever besides a STORY BOOK?
Give me a SINGLE ounce of proof………. a single….
……and plz having ppl follow u and create something is easy
…..remember the movie the wave………
Cole, I’m dissapointed. Matt, same goes for you. I have well past accepted that you don’t believe in God, and that you think religion is stupid. And I respect that. I respect that you have your own ideas on things. Good for you.
What I don’t respect is that you can’t do the same for me.
Those are the only words I can express that would even make any sense to you.
wow billy i am impressed, well sorta, i am glad u can accept our “beliefs”, even those going against wat u have been taught all ur life
but atleast the one thing y spend ur life worshipping something that may not exist?
i just want to know!
and if it does exist y doesn’t it make itself apparent and free for all to see
y just leave behind books and dreams
y…y…..y?
Basically Pascal’s Wager:
1. If God exists and we believe, all is well.
2. If God exists and we don’t believe, we’re in trouble.
3. If God doesn’t exist and we believe, all is well.
4. If God doesn’t exist and we don’t believe, all is well.
You can’t deny that.
Think about it.
thanks for helping me out david
religion was created to keep ppl in order
if u think about it most the history we know was back towards when religion was created, except all the stuff we know from scientist now
and david i don’t get #2
nvr mind i think i get it……
and i will take my chances
well put david. ive nvr heard that before, but it really is all there is to it. matt, i dont got anything to say to you, but david, im glad that you are exploring different ideas. im not gunna preach to you guys, but i will tell you my stand point. i am a christian, and i do believe that jesus died on the cross and paid for our sins. im not telling you to believe what i believe, i am letting you know that if you want to know more you can talk to me. dibs08@gmail.com
Peace
DIBS stfu
u don’t even know wat ur talking about and u don’t even have an oppinion
ne ways david u r stupid and won’t let in ne body elses ideas i am out
Shutup Cole. I’m not letting your ideas in. lol.
Wow. Cole, you said you were in a bad mood when you went on a spree writing me that email, posting about Facebook….and now…this.
“DIBS stfu” – Cole
This is the first time you’ve gotten vile about religion. Now I don’t think a girl on her time, would say something that rude. And your amounts of stress you’re under right now don’t give you any right to go off on someone that put in their opinion,m just like everyone else and you. EERRRRR WAIT, I guess you’ve never said anything on this issue before!!!!! (*See above!!!*) (*Look for your own name!!!*)
Thanks for the input DIBS 🙂
LOL, david, cole didnt say that. Matt did. he got on coles computer at school, and did it. im sure cole will tell you the same thing, plus that matt should burn and die.
Just FYI for everyone. Take a look at how “I” wrote above…
Thats not even close to how I write and I think its funny that you really thought it was me.
Anyways… Billy… you didn’t even respond to my comment… you were just like “I believe in God so there!!”
hmm u realy couldn’t tell it was me? look at the horrible punctuation between mine and his……
by the way this section can use a little humor, there is too much feelings getting and crap here
top debaters and crap can’t even talk about it, too touchy of a subject, so there should b no trying to “convert”. Only sharing opinion, which we have been doing a ok deal of ne ways.
so i have said my peace……
Well said matt
there’s other humorous posts to talk humor on…
Also well put, David
“so there should b no trying to “convert—-matt
Matt, im not trying to convert someone. I am just letting people know if they wanna talk to me, then they can.
I know this is waaaaaaaay late, but after reading David’s entry, and overseeing this debate, I have to write a comment no matter how late it is. If anyone does read this, I would love a response, especially you David. Ever since I was born, I’ve been raised a Christian, and I’ve never had any problem with it. Ever since I went to a Wednesday youth group at about the age of 13 and saw Dr. Kent Hovinds’ seminars on Creation Science Evangelism, I have become sort of a die-hard Christian conservative ready to debate any issue I believe in. When I look at the world, I feel that the everything is way to complex to have evolved from a freaking fish. The real evolution theory says that we came from a rock(if you ask me, I can explain). Without God, or any higher being, there is no point in life. I cannot and will not accept that we all evolved over billions of years and that we just keep evolving. There are many creationist theories out there. I believe that God created us in 6 days. For any evolutionist that thinks that that is ridiculous I would ask them to look at their own theory that we came from tiny organisms over billions of years. I don’t understand people who say that you shouldn’t believe in God because there is no proof. There is no solid proof that God exists; but I think the world is proof. I believe that our existence is so complex that we would require a creator, and for that I trust in God. What atheist evolutionists need to understand is that there is no proof for their theory, none. There is no proof that one organism has succesfully changed into another organism ever, so why wouldn’t you assume a creator? When I have problems in my life, I pray to God and trust in God, even for the small things like losing my wallet. David, you came from the mind of a higher being, and you didn’t evolve from a single cell. You must feel that God is in your presence somehow, and if not, I would encourage you to search. I am really big on the evolution debate on getting creationism in the schools and the argument for creationism itself. Anyone who’s interested and expecially David, visit DrDino.com. This is Dr. Kent Hovinds site, a creationist who has proof for creationism and against evolution. Seriously, visit this site. He’ll answer a lot of questions you have, such as Lucy and how she was just another skeleton made into a celebrity by evolutionists. The thing that will give you the most information is is Creation Seminar series. It’s like $100. I have the whole set and if your interested in an argument against evolution just ask me and I’ll let you borrow it. That’s all I have to say.